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Old 05-25-2018, 03:34 PM  
banecat banecat is online now
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Western Society and it's erosion

https://neociceroniantimes.wordpress...-and-imagined/

I've noticed a few touch on this in some of the posts and threads here. I'm not sure that aristocracy is the answer, but reform in a lot of areas is. I'd agree that with how large the world has become in population, and the same with the US that everything's become so watered down. It starts at the top. It's not juts the weakest link

When the number one priority is greed the race to the bottom becomes easier. It doesn't go into how out of touch the elites are enough, but it tells of how much like Rome we are. But wanting an aristocracy is problem better than wanting the next Plague to happen sooner rather than later like I do
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Old 05-25-2018, 04:28 PM   #16
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Also, for what it's worth I think every progressive should read this.

This is what the ACTUAL alt-right sounds like.

Not the liberals and conservatives you label that way to dishonestly demonize them.

THIS is the rhetoric of the alt right.

THIS is not anywhere near the mainstream folks.
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Old 05-25-2018, 05:13 PM   #17
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I have nothing to do with the author or his horrible ideas, but the USA parallels Rome in so many ways I could go on for days.

Both were founded when a small part of a kingdom rebelled. Both formed representative governments for the purpose of avoiding the kind of tyranny found in kings. Both grew and thrived as republics. Both fought and won a war which shifted the entire political landscape, turning them instantly from 'just another nations' into 'super power' (2nd punic war, and WWII), and both were slowly corroded away by corrupt politicians and war mongers until they overthrew the republic and they started bending the knee to a tyrant. In Rome's case it was an emperor, not a king.

That's pretty redacted. There is so much more. Well, the USA hasn't gotten to the last stage with the tyrant yet, but we ought to be aware of it's potential to happen.

This article argues in favor of tyranny, so obviously we're not coming from the same place here.
I’d say WWI rather than WWII mainly because it was US involvement that radically tipped the balance and made US neutrality in WWII so valuable. And if you look at the executive powers claimed by recent Presidents, particularly Bush II, you can see the shift from the legislative to the executive. England declared James II a tyrant because James declared the king (the executive) had the sole right to determine who was a traitor and who was not. This is one of the main factors in the Glorious Revolution.

In response, the British Lords declared James a tyrant and sentenced him to execution. See the book The Tyrannicide Brief for the legal history behind this.

Bush looked to amelgmate similar power. The Supreme Court rebuffed many of his efforts but Bush II represents a major power shift to the executive.

Rome was also marked by a policy of placating the masses by entertainment and presenting gifts of baubles to buy them off in an election. The transition from Sulla to Augustus represents the transition from republic to empire. We are shifting back and forth between republic and empire but for us, it is more nationalism and globalism. We live in a very historically significant time. That is good and bad.
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Old 05-25-2018, 05:17 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banecat View Post
https://neociceroniantimes.wordpress...-and-imagined/

I've noticed a few touch on this in some of the posts and threads here. I'm not sure that aristocracy is the answer, but reform in a lot of areas is. I'd agree that with how large the world has become in population, and the same with the US that everything's become so watered down. It starts at the top. It's not juts the weakest link

When the number one priority is greed the race to the bottom becomes easier. It doesn't go into how out of touch the elites are enough, but it tells of how much like Rome we are. But wanting an aristocracy is problem better than wanting the next Plague to happen sooner rather than later like I do
Who wants an aristocracy? Is that in your link?


I think our elites are today's version of an aristocracy since we're actually governed as de-facto oligarchy. Their aristocracy are their front men and foot-soldiers.
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Old 05-25-2018, 05:23 PM   #19
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Old 05-25-2018, 05:25 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Who wants an aristocracy? Is that in your link?


I think our elites are today's version of an aristocracy since we're actually governed as de-facto oligarchy. Their aristocracy are their front men and foot-soldiers.
The argument is more that there will be an aristocracy no matter what. He argues that in the Roman Republic days, the aristocracy was in favor of Rome but as Rome “progressed”,the aristocracy became more selfish and focused on gaining material wealth. He argues this pattern is seen in the US in the influential wealthy. However, the influential wealthy drape themselves in the clothing of the common people so they are viewed as average Joes while their wealth, perspective and influence shows they are anything but.

So he isn’t arguing for tyranny or even aristocracy as such but that we realize the American aristocracy does not have America’s best interests at heart and we would be better off with an aristocracy that did have American interests at heart.
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Old 05-25-2018, 05:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Who wants an aristocracy? Is that in your link?


I think our elites are today's version of an aristocracy since we're actually governed as de-facto oligarchy. Their aristocracy are their front men and foot-soldiers.
The author does. Our elites are too focused on their own good from what the article states to be aristocratic. I'd have to say that we're an oligarchy
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Old 05-25-2018, 05:47 PM   #22
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The author does. Our elites are too focused on their own good from what the article states to be aristocratic. I'd have to say that we're an oligarchy
I would not agree. Exactly..

If the US was an oligarchy, there is a 0% chance Trump would ever be elected president. It wouldn't have happened. If you broaden it out, every nation in the history of earth has been ruled by a comparative few in power. Trying to avoid being overly harsh, but it's almost a meaningless thing to say. Oligarchy is a very broad term. Any government will naturally have a hierarchy and hierarchy stacks at the bottom, not the top.

The US is literally designed to harness an elite class, but it's also designed so that the elites will, most frequently, be self made men. Elite by merit rather than birthright. It also has a lot of checks to prevent them from consolidating power.

If you look at the statistics of economic mobility, you'd see the richest men in the US, for the most part, made their own money. They didn't inherit it. They EARNED it.

I think this is a GOOD thing, and the author here interprets it in completely the opposite way.
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Old 05-25-2018, 06:02 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by frozenchief View Post
I’d say WWI rather than WWII mainly because it was US involvement that radically tipped the balance and made US neutrality in WWII so valuable. And if you look at the executive powers claimed by recent Presidents, particularly Bush II, you can see the shift from the legislative to the executive. England declared James II a tyrant because James declared the king (the executive) had the sole right to determine who was a traitor and who was not. This is one of the main factors in the Glorious Revolution.

In response, the British Lords declared James a tyrant and sentenced him to execution. See the book The Tyrannicide Brief for the legal history behind this.

Bush looked to amelgmate similar power. The Supreme Court rebuffed many of his efforts but Bush II represents a major power shift to the executive.

Rome was also marked by a policy of placating the masses by entertainment and presenting gifts of baubles to buy them off in an election. The transition from Sulla to Augustus represents the transition from republic to empire. We are shifting back and forth between republic and empire but for us, it is more nationalism and globalism. We live in a very historically significant time. That is good and bad.
I like this post.

I'm going to disagree though on a few points. While WWI increased the US's global visibility and reputation it wasn't until after WWII that the world recognized, and feared, the most powerful nation on earth. The US was pivotal in winning WWII due to the excellent leadership, and the brutal display of absolute destructive power at Hiroshima. That changed the way EVERYONE looked at the country. At the end of the 2nd world war the USA was the undisputed leader economically and militarily. I wasn't alive when the bomb dropped, but I have no doubt the world trembled.

Much the same way the world trembled when Rome totally crushed the Carthaginian fleets and took control of the mediterranean.

I have also recognized the executive power grabs, which is why the question becomes... is it too late to act and preserve what we once had?
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Old 05-25-2018, 06:25 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
I like this post.

I'm going to disagree though on a few points. While WWI increased the US's global visibility and reputation it wasn't until after WWII that the world recognized, and feared, the most powerful nation on earth. The US was pivotal in winning WWII due to the excellent leadership, and the brutal display of absolute destructive power at Hiroshima. That changed the way EVERYONE looked at the country. At the end of the 2nd world war the USA was the undisputed leader economically and militarily. I wasn't alive when the bomb dropped, but I have no doubt the world trembled.

Much the same way the world trembled when Rome totally crushed the Carthaginian fleets and took control of the mediterranean.

I have also recognized the executive power grabs, which is why the question becomes... is it too late to act and preserve what we once had?
Yes, it is FAR too late. The point of no return has been reached - just as it did in England. Just as it did in Rome and Greece.

The hell of it? It didn't have to be this way. We could have stopped it. Now? we are condemned to repeat it - just as Santayana said. United States? Join with your brothers in England, Rome and Greece.
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Old 05-25-2018, 06:34 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
I like this post.

I'm going to disagree though on a few points. While WWI increased the US's global visibility and reputation it wasn't until after WWII that the world recognized, and feared, the most powerful nation on earth. The US was pivotal in winning WWII due to the excellent leadership, and the brutal display of absolute destructive power at Hiroshima. That changed the way EVERYONE looked at the country. At the end of the 2nd world war the USA was the undisputed leader economically and militarily. I wasn't alive when the bomb dropped, but I have no doubt the world trembled.

Much the same way the world trembled when Rome totally crushed the Carthaginian fleets and took control of the mediterranean.

I have also recognized the executive power grabs, which is why the question becomes... is it too late to act and preserve what we once had?
You're both basically right. It was probably in the twenties between the wars. It was there. The waking of the sleeping giant.

Hitler didn't want any part of the US. He wanted to try to join forces, but thought that we were too diverse. So he gave up. He wasn't too happy when the Japs Pearl Harbored Hawaii.

It was during the War when the world was shown American Exceptionalism
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Old 05-25-2018, 08:16 PM   #26
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At first, I read the title as “western society and it’s erection”.

And of course, the throbbing erection of western society would be Trump.
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Old 05-25-2018, 09:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by WhiteWhale View Post
I would not agree. Exactly..

If the US was an oligarchy, there is a 0% chance Trump would ever be elected president.
Well, I said a de-facto oligarchy. I think Trump was an unexpected monkey wrench into it. That's why all the hyperventilation about him with the corporate owned press, owned by a few men—which is part of this de-facto oligarchy.

They groom front men, who are not the real power. Men like Clinton and Obama but not the Bushes because they are one of the ruling families aka the oligarchy.
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Old 05-26-2018, 07:18 AM   #28
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Jesus dude.

Rome was one of the most well documented empires in history. The archaeological evidence matches it too.

Yanno, you can look into this by doing more than reading a 'history book'. What are you? In high school?

If you have not been to the ruins, you should go. Amazing
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Old 05-26-2018, 09:38 AM   #29
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If you have not been to the ruins, you should go. Amazing
I have not, but it's on my bucket list.
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Old 05-27-2018, 12:23 PM   #30
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