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Old 06-12-2018, 04:27 PM  
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:28 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
IThe IG says that he didn't find smoking gun evidence linking the rampant biases he discovered with specific investigative decisions.
And could it not be possible that such a smoking gun doesn't exist?
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:34 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I'll help you with your English. The IG says that he didn't find smoking gun evidence linking the rampant biases he discovered with specific investigative decisions. He didn't find a memo saying, "I'm going to do X to make sure Hillary gets elected" and he didn't extract any confessions from the employees he interviewed. That's not the same as concluding that bias didn't impact the investigation, which he didn't do.

It's beyond belief that these investigations have been handled objectively given the bias that the IG has uncovered. But it's hard to suss out the political bias from the self-serving bias from the pressure-from-above bias. One thing we do know though, is that the fix was in on the Hillary investigation. That alone should have us all looking for proverbial heads to roll.
So, what is you solution? People with a different political opinion than you are not allowed to investigate you? So only dems can investigate dems and only reps can investigate reps? Maybe only criminals can investigate criminals? Is it perhaps possible that maybe some of the bias that you see from these people is because they've spent their whole lives identifying criminals and they can tell Trump is one? Maybe it's just a law enforcement official having a bias against a criminal. Maybe.

Also note that you are essentially saying there is enough smoke so the worst case scenario must be true even if there is no direct evidence of it. Should we apply that same logic to the Trump/Russia investigation? A whole hell of a lot of smoke there. So we don't need evidence to gut the FBI but we need the smoking gun to hold Trump accountable?

Personally I'd like to see proof before we start politically dismantling the FBI to serve the needs of a potentially criminal administration. I'd also like to see proof before we remove a POTUS from office. Kinda one of those innocent until proven guilty kinda deals.
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:55 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
And could it not be possible that such a smoking gun doesn't exist?
Of course. It's likely that it doesn't exist, regardless of the role bias played. These people aren't stupid people.
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:00 PM   #274
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So, what is you solution? People with a different political opinion than you are not allowed to investigate you? So only dems can investigate dems and only reps can investigate reps? Maybe only criminals can investigate criminals? Is it perhaps possible that maybe some of the bias that you see from these people is because they've spent their whole lives identifying criminals and they can tell Trump is one? Maybe it's just a law enforcement official having a bias against a criminal. Maybe.

Also note that you are essentially saying there is enough smoke so the worst case scenario must be true even if there is no direct evidence of it. Should we apply that same logic to the Trump/Russia investigation? A whole hell of a lot of smoke there. So we don't need evidence to gut the FBI but we need the smoking gun to hold Trump accountable?

Personally I'd like to see proof before we start politically dismantling the FBI to serve the needs of a potentially criminal administration. I'd also like to see proof before we remove a POTUS from office. Kinda one of those innocent until proven guilty kinda deals.
Well for starters the DOJ, FBI and the CIA — NONE of them are in the Constitution. But the President's position is. Yet, they think they run the show or the govt, but they shouldn't even attempt to. That's where we should start.
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:05 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Shaid View Post
So, what is you solution? People with a different political opinion than you are not allowed to investigate you? So only dems can investigate dems and only reps can investigate reps? Maybe only criminals can investigate criminals? Is it perhaps possible that maybe some of the bias that you see from these people is because they've spent their whole lives identifying criminals and they can tell Trump is one? Maybe it's just a law enforcement official having a bias against a criminal. Maybe.
My solution is to drum out the dirty cops and the cops with low ethical standards and keep the rest. This isn't about party identification. Personally, I think kissing up to power (protecting your job or your chunk of bureaucracy) is the biggest bias at work here.

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Also note that you are essentially saying there is enough smoke so the worst case scenario must be true even if there is no direct evidence of it. Should we apply that same logic to the Trump/Russia investigation? A whole hell of a lot of smoke there. So we don't need evidence to gut the FBI but we need the smoking gun to hold Trump accountable?
No, I'm saying we already know enough to know that there's some truth to the charge that there are problems at the upper levels of the Obama FBI/DOJ. The IG report is great, but more investigation is necessary and the smoke warrants it.

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Personally I'd like to see proof before we start politically dismantling the FBI to serve the needs of a potentially criminal administration. I'd also like to see proof before we remove a POTUS from office. Kinda one of those innocent until proven guilty kinda deals.
Would you object to a second Special Counsel to investigate these concerns?
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:16 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
I'll help you with your English. The IG says that he didn't find smoking gun evidence linking the rampant biases he discovered with specific investigative decisions. He didn't find a memo saying, "I'm going to do X to make sure Hillary gets elected" and he didn't extract any confessions from the employees he interviewed. That's not the same as concluding that bias didn't impact the investigation, which he didn't do.

It's beyond belief that these investigations have been handled objectively given the bias that the IG has uncovered. But it's hard to suss out the political bias from the self-serving bias from the pressure-from-above bias. One thing we do know though, is that the fix was in on the Hillary investigation. That alone should have us all looking for proverbial heads to roll.
It's fun to just make up words like "smoking gun" and "rampant" to pretend the report says very nearly the opposite of what it does say. But when we look at the actual words in the report, there is convincing evidence that the decision not to prosecute was not the result of bias because it was fully consistent with precedent and past decisions not to prosecute. Specifically, and inter alia, the report says:

The Midyear team concluded that such proof was
lacking. We found that this interpretation of Section
793(f)(1) was consistent with the Department’s
historical approach in prior cases under different
leadership, including in the 2008 decision not to
prosecute former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales for
mishandling classified documents.
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:18 PM   #277
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With the IC party affiliation largely being Republican, I wonder how many hate Hillary texts were generated during the run-up...

Should somebody start looking now, since this seems to be such a watershed moment for Trump supporters?
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:22 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Cosmos View Post
With the IC party affiliation largely being Republican, I wonder how many hate Hillary texts were generated during the run-up...

Should somebody start looking now, since this seems to be such a watershed moment for Trump supporters?
This is a great question. So far, I count: 0.

Did I miss any?
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:25 PM   #279
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Would you object to a second Special Counsel to investigate these concerns?
I've seen this pushed a lot, just like I saw a bunch of push on that the IG report would reveal everything. I suppose my question is do you believe the IG is incapable of doing it's job here? Is he in danger of being fired and his investigation stopped in some way? If that were the case, I would. That's the underlying rationale in why a Special Counsel was appointed after the Comey firing. It was obviously an attempt to derail the Russia investigation and Trump stated so himself. I haven't seen anyone attempting to derail the IG so don't see any reason for him to not be able to do his job.
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:40 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
This is a great question. So far, I count: 0.

Did I miss any?
Brilliant as ever.

If you can't figure out the problem, consider how many agents' private texts have been reviewed.
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:48 PM   #281
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I've seen this pushed a lot, just like I saw a bunch of push on that the IG report would reveal everything. I suppose my question is do you believe the IG is incapable of doing it's job here? Is he in danger of being fired and his investigation stopped in some way? If that were the case, I would. That's the underlying rationale in why a Special Counsel was appointed after the Comey firing. It was obviously an attempt to derail the Russia investigation and Trump stated so himself. I haven't seen anyone attempting to derail the IG so don't see any reason for him to not be able to do his job.
Of course his job is not to prosecute crimes. If crimes occurred it needs to be looked at by the FBI or Doj and obviously many involved with both have conflicts which would warrant a SC.
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:49 PM   #282
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Brilliant as ever.

If you can't figure out the problem, consider how many agents' private texts have been reviewed.
My understanding it is routine for FBI to monitor all agents texts from time to time. Just the relevant ones were supposed to be turned over to congress and mentioned in the IG report.
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:58 PM   #283
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My understanding it is routine for FBI to monitor all agents texts from time to time. Just the relevant ones were supposed to be turned over to congress and mentioned in the IG report.
When we're talking about a decision not to prosecute Clinton, how would anti-Clinton messages be relevant?
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:04 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Shaid View Post
I've seen this pushed a lot, just like I saw a bunch of push on that the IG report would reveal everything. I suppose my question is do you believe the IG is incapable of doing it's job here? Is he in danger of being fired and his investigation stopped in some way? If that were the case, I would. That's the underlying rationale in why a Special Counsel was appointed after the Comey firing. It was obviously an attempt to derail the Russia investigation and Trump stated so himself. I haven't seen anyone attempting to derail the IG so don't see any reason for him to not be able to do his job.
I think the IG is definitely more limited than a prosecutor. The choice for further, more thorough investigation would be between the US attorney in Utah that AG Sessions has investigating some of this stuff and a Special Prosecutor.
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:17 PM   #285
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