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Old 07-11-2018, 11:58 AM  
HonestChieffan HonestChieffan is offline
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ven the Lefties are starting to see Elon Musk as an empty suit

https://gizmodo.com/is-elon-musk-ser...ium=socialflow


Long read but pretty well lines it out.
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:01 PM   #31
ChiliConCarnage ChiliConCarnage is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
It also let the company off with an exceptionally mild slap-on-the-wrist fine of $50 million for cooking its books in the late 1990s and 2000s, when there might instead have been a large fine and criminal fraud charges.

As a further indication of its exceptionally close ties, the Obama administration inserted language into the late 2012 fiscal cliff bill that enabled the company to avoid paying much federal income taxes.[/INDENT]
The SEC won an incredible battle with GE to get those 50 million charges acknowledged. The SEC budget is a tiny fraction of what some of these megacorps barely notice profiting in. That's not an obama-era slap on the wrist, it's just life. I've not invested in GE since that date. What is the 2012 fiscal cliff about in that last paragraph?
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:30 PM   #32
GloucesterChief GloucesterChief is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
And....Gloucester Chief, I had to search for this again.

GE faces federal lawsuit over Fukushima nuclear disaster

"GE designed and largely constructed the entire failed Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant at the center of the dispute," the lawsuit claims, "and for many years, directly or indirectly through its affiliates, was responsible for the maintenance of the (plant). ...

The lawsuit states the seeds of the Fukushima disaster were planted in the 1960s when GE made a "risky bet to dominate the commercial nuclear power industry. In so doing, GE misrepresented the safety of its nuclear reactor, the lawsuit claims "so it could generate sales and earn profits surrounding the possibilities of nuclear power."

The plaintiffs in the case say they are representing 150,000 Japanese citizens and hundreds of businesses.

https://www.bizjournals.com/boston/n...a-nuclear.html
You and I both know that a lawsuit being filed means absolutely nothing.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:34 PM   #33
Chief Pagan Chief Pagan is online now
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Fukushima I plant was not defective. It in fact withstood much more punishment than it was designed to. It was fully functional after the Earthquake. It wasn't until the tsunami waves crested the seawall and flooded where the backup generators were that a partial meltdown in one of six reactors happened. A meltdown that was fully contained in the reactor chamber. The plant was 40 years old at that point and didn't contain many of the passive cooling measures that modern nuclear reactors have.
The first bold part is just wrong. The second bold part is probably wrong as well and even if it is technically right a lot of radiation escaped and they continue to have radioactive groundwater leaving the site.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukush...clear_disaster

The Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster was an energy accident at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant in Ōkuma, Fukushima Prefecture, initiated primarily by the tsunami following the Tōhoku earthquake on 11 March 2011.[6] Immediately after the earthquake, the active reactors automatically shut down their sustained fission reactions. However, the tsunami disabled the emergency generators that would have provided power to control and operate the pumps necessary to cool the reactors. The insufficient cooling led to three nuclear meltdowns, hydrogen-air explosions, and the release of radioactive material in Units 1, 2 and 3 from 12 March to 15 March. Loss of cooling also raised concerns over the recently loaded spent fuel pool of Reactor 4, which increased in temperature on 15 March due to the decay heat from the freshly added spent fuel rods but did not boil down to exposure.[7]

On 5 July 2012, the Fukushima Nuclear Accident Independent Investigation Commission (NAIIC) found that the causes of the accident had been foreseeable, and that the plant operator, Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO), had failed to meet basic safety requirements such as risk assessment, preparing for containing collateral damage, and developing evacuation plans. On 12 October 2012, TEPCO admitted for the first time that it had failed to take necessary measures for fear of inviting lawsuits or protests against its nuclear plants.[8][9][10][11]
In February 2017, TEPCO released images taken inside Reactor 2 by a remote-controlled camera that show there is a 2-meter (6.5 ft) wide hole[22] in the metal grating under the pressure vessel in the reactor's primary containment vessel,[23] which could have been caused by fuel escaping the pressure vessel, indicating a meltdown/melt-through had occurred, through this layer of containment.



They knew that historical tsunami waves had been higher than their sea-wall. They had been warned about it. And it was a totally defective design that put the emergency backup generators in the basement instead of up on the roof.

The plant was 40 years old and they refused to either shut it down or add retro-safety features such as moving the generators to the roof because they didn't want to pay for it.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:38 PM   #34
Chief Pagan Chief Pagan is online now
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Musk is a brilliant but eccentric guy who laser-focuses on issues until he solves them.
Yeah, and if he was a better manager maybe he wouldn't let so many problems get to the crises stage of requiring laser-focus on that issue only until he solves it.

He is trying to run a startup space company, create a huge battery company, and run a startup car company all at the same time while also taking out time to create bizarre fantasies of colonies on Mars and running over to Asia to stick his nose into a cave rescue that he has no background in.

He has way too much ego and stretches himself way too thin.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:38 PM   #35
Eleazar Eleazar is offline
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Muskophiles are really sort of creepy in their unquestioning devotion to him
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:46 PM   #36
Chief Pagan Chief Pagan is online now
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
That means they're unlikely to work at all. That's usually what govts subsidize.
Yeah, well Elon Musk did not start PayPal either. He made made billions off of it through merger— until he got the idea to drag the government into space travel, solar panels, and electric cars. You knew what kind of enterprises I was talking about. Instead of taking his own risks in the market, he fleeces the taxpayer for subsidies for these hi-risk projects that are not profitable on their own.

If he thinks colonizing other planets, space travel, solar panels and electric cars are profitable ideas then he should put up his own money.

Sorry, Elon Musk is now the ultimate crony capitalist operating in areas where he can't make it on his own in such markets.
I don't buy into the Elon Must cult or the idea that he is some great visionary that is going to save the world and the media fest over his bizarre ideas makes me roll my eyes.

But I'm willing to give some credit where it is due. I'm sure he was lucky to be in the right place at the right time with PayPal. But I don't think it is very likely you can make that much money without also being skilled and hard working.

I would think you would prefer the government to contract out space launches. I wouldn't say that NASA has been a cheap, lean launching machine. Musk raised private capital and started a launch company. He got government paid launches but he was competing against other private launch companies for those contracts. He had to convince NASA his product was safe enough to dock at the space station.

Electric cars have gotten subsidies, but he wasn't the first to bring electric cars to market. Those subsidies were available to all car companies. Starting a car company is no mean feat. I have my doubts about Tesla. I actually think he should have sold it, probably to a German car company. But I hope that Tesla makes it, although I at this point I would short Tesla before I would invest in it.

Last edited by Chief Pagan; 07-11-2018 at 09:53 PM..
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Old 07-12-2018, 06:44 AM   #37
chiefzilla1501 chiefzilla1501 is offline
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Originally Posted by Chief Pagan View Post
I don't buy into the Elon Must cult or the idea that he is some great visionary that is going to save the world and the media fest over his bizarre ideas makes me roll my eyes.

But I'm willing to give some credit where it is due. I'm sure he was lucky to be in the right place at the right time with PayPal. But I don't think it is very likely you can make that much money without also being skilled and hard working.

I would think you would prefer the government to contract out space launches. I wouldn't say that NASA has been a cheap, lean launching machine. Musk raised private capital and started a launch company. He got government paid launches but he was competing against other private launch companies for those contracts. He had to convince NASA his product was safe enough to dock at the space station.

Electric cars have gotten subsidies, but he wasn't the first to bring electric cars to market. Those subsidies were available to all car companies. Starting a car company is no mean feat. I have my doubts about Tesla. I actually think he should have sold it, probably to a German car company. But I hope that Tesla makes it, although I at this point I would short Tesla before I would invest in it.
Elon Musk strikes me as a true innovator. He will work his ass off to try to make anything work. That doesn't always make for a good business model, because a good company would prioritize pipeline investment. And that's where his shortcomings are.

However, your point about electric cars... it's disingenuous for anyone to suggest that he received any kind of advantage by receiving subsidies. Those subsidies are no match for oil & gas monopolizing and tanking the battery market, and Big Auto accepting subsidies then creating skunk work operations to ensure battery cars would fail in the market. That's not even close to a free market. To Musk's credit, he fought a battle against the biggest lobby in the US that have been bribing politicians for years to undermine his technology. Thankfully, that game has changed and oil & gas know the inevitable can no longer be avoided. Europe & China are legitimately subsidizing electric, the eBus market is set to explode, and Uber/Lyft are going to force Big Auto to do what they didn't want to do - scale electric. And now that all patents are finally public domain, you're seeing a lot of battery competition and open-sourcing of technology - what should have happened in the first place. And as driverless becomes inevitable, especially in the commercial market, Big Auto will have no choice but to concede that electric is the most feasible option. These are three market forces that are going to make battery huge in a big way. I don't trust Tesla because I still think they chase after every shiny object. But I wouldn't short it because of batteries and electric vehicles. That market is going to soar very very quickly.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:33 AM   #38
Trolly McTrollson Trolly McTrollson is offline
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Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
Muskophiles are really sort of creepy in their unquestioning devotion to him
This is basically how us libs feel about Trumpophiles.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:36 AM   #39
Trolly McTrollson Trolly McTrollson is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Then he shouldn't need the govt contracts. But he does use them and gets rich off taxpayers. Ultimate crony capitalist.
Yes, he’s a capitalist rather than a socialist, glad you’re finally on board.
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Old 07-13-2018, 08:41 PM   #40
aturnis aturnis is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
He's a government sycophant who can't make it in the market on his own.
Oh shit the **** up. Worn out old bullshit. What exactly has Tesla gotten that other manufacturers didn't also take?
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Old Yesterday, 10:36 AM   #41
GloucesterChief GloucesterChief is offline
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Oh shit the **** up. Worn out old bullshit. What exactly has Tesla gotten that other manufacturers didn't also take?
Tax credits for customers buying their cars both federal and in some states. Cars that are pretty much the middle class can't purchase. All together Musk's companies have gotten about 4.9 billion as 2015 in government largesse.
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Old Yesterday, 10:58 AM   #42
chiefzilla1501 chiefzilla1501 is offline
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Tax credits for customers buying their cars both federal and in some states. Cars that are pretty much the middle class can't purchase. All together Musk's companies have gotten about 4.9 billion as 2015 in government largesse.
Does any amount of subsidy matter when the government allows oil and gas to monopolize the battery market, and big auto to purposefully create market barriers to scale battery tech? Is a subsidy really that much different from the massive tax incentives oil and gas have invested in infrastructure during that same time? Subsidies mean nothing when your competitor is receiving even more favorable benefit. It's basically a market correction.
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Old Yesterday, 01:14 PM   #43
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Elon is a generational talent whose genius needs to be paired with operations people with the savvy to bring his works into practical use.

He’s also politically...interesting.

Elon Musk donated nearly $40K to Republican PAC, filings show

Tesla and SpaceX CEO Elon Musk was one of the top 50 donors last quarter to a political action committee (PAC) aimed at maintaining Republican control of the House, FEC filings show.

The filings, released this week, show that Musk donated a total of $38,900 to Protect The House.

Other high-profile donors also gave to the PAC, including Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen, who gave $100,000 and Bob McNair, Houston Texans owner, who gave $371,500.

Salon first pointed out Musk’s major donation to the group, which raised more than $8 million in the second quarter.

Musk is a friend of House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy, according to Politico.


Still, Musk’s donation is surprising given some of his purported political views.

As the CEO of electric car company Tesla, he has spoken out against climate change and reportedly unsuccessfully lobbied President Trump to institute a tax on carbon.

This week, Musk made an unspecified pledge to help families in Flint, Michigan, who were affected by contaminated water.

Musk has also been critical of Trump in the past, and stepped down from two White House councils after Trump pulled the U.S. out of the Paris climate agreement.

The billionaire has described himself as a “socialist,” but was widely mocked on social media after tweeting about it last month.
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Old Yesterday, 01:15 PM   #44
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Yes, he’s a capitalist rather than a socialist, glad you’re finally on board.
Nope.
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Old Yesterday, 01:19 PM   #45
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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...they continue to have radioactive groundwater leaving the site....

They knew that historical tsunami waves had been higher than their sea-wall. They had been warned about it. And it was a totally defective design that put the emergency backup generators in the basement instead of up on the roof....

The plant was 40 years old and they refused to either shut it down or add retro-safety features such as moving the generators to the roof because they didn't want to pay for it.
Yep!

I wonder how GE got that contract? Probably through their political connections as one of the govt's most-favored-corps. It is another uber, uber crony capitalist outfit.
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