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Old 07-21-2018, 09:12 PM  
Just Passin' By Just Passin' By is offline
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Powerline Blog: Breaking: Carter Page FISA file released

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The Trump administration has just released a heavily redacted version of the FISA application on Carter Page to the New York Times and other news organization that sought it under the Freedom of Information Act. The Times reports on the release in this breaking news article by Charlie Savage. I have embedded the file as posted by the Times below via Scribd.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archive...e-released.php

Here's the application and, as mentioned, it's heavily redacted.

https://www.scribd.com/document/3843...ile#from_embed
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:48 PM   #46
rockymountainchief rockymountainchief is offline
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The majority of this is information the government provided separate and apart from Steele and open source info.

Two of the pages are collaborating sources that are CIs. One of the redacted pages is an interview that the FBI conducted with Page himself. The rest suggests that it is information from other sensitive sources and methods.
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:54 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by rockymountainchief View Post
The majority of this is information the government provided separate and apart from Steele and open source info.
That's observably incorrect.
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:01 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
Yes, I read the part about media and got the implication about the dossier.

I've scrolled through the entire thing. Ya know what, I'll bet 90% of it is redacted. There is no way in hell anyone could come up with an accurate description of why the warrant was issued until it is all unredacted.
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:04 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by rockymountainchief View Post
How do I know there was probable cause contained in the redacted information that collaborates? Because there's no way they would get this approved by four different federal judges if there wasn't.

Here's the bar it has to pass to get approved.

Multiple levels within the FBI have to deem a national security threat to open an investigation
FBI has to gather evidence that supports the claim that the US target was knowingly working on behalf of a foreign entity
The resulting affidavit and application has to be approved through FBI chain of command (supervisor, Chief Division Counsel, the agent in charge of the field office, then by someone at FBI HQ)
Then lawyers from the National Security Division of the DoJ has to verify that the assertions in the affidavit are valid

If there are any holes in that, it kicks back to the FBI. Once it's signed off by DoJ lawyers, then it goes to federal district judges to approve it

And once it's approved, the FBI needs to show that they've found additional information collaborating the original claim in order to get it renewed. Which they did three times.

But "Deep State", right?
You obviously have little to no experience dealing with federal warrants. Judges rarely make independent evaluations of the evidence presented, which is all the more distressing after Leon. And if you donít know what I mean by Leon, you should know you are talking out your ass.

FISA isnít necessarily governed by Leon but FISA is not supposed to be the basis for criminal charges. Further, the affidavit does not disclose that Page was instrumental in the prosecution and apprehension of Russian spies a few years prior. Page went to the FBI and based on his cooperation, the FBI prosecuted a whole Russian spy ring. The FISA warrant does not disclose this, nor does it give a reason why Page is now a suspect for recruitment by the Russians.

This is a major Franks issue. Again, if you donít understand Franks, you donít understand the significance of this omission.

Maybe itís because Iíve been a federal defense attorney for a couple of decades but this stinks. It stinks worse than the tons of salmon that die and rot in south central Alaska rivers in the fall.
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:06 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
That's observably incorrect.
The codes next to the redacted areas indicate the exemption for denial of FOIA.

See b7D-1? That means information that might reasonably be expected to disclose the identity of a confidential source.

If you know that the various exemptions are, you can understand the reason behind the redaction.

90% is redacted for a reason along these lines. So how is that statement "observably incorrect"?
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:06 AM   #51
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I make no claims as to the accuracy of what I'm about to link, but I pass it on for those who wish to check into its veracity.

Quote:
Newly Released FISA Docs Contradict Strzok’s Sworn Claims He Had Nothing to Do With Carter Page FISA Warrant
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...-fisa-warrant/
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:08 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockymountainchief View Post
The codes next to the redacted areas indicate the exemption for denial of FOIA.

See b7D-1? That means information that might reasonably be expected to disclose the identity of a confidential source.

If you know that the various exemptions are, you can understand the reason behind the redaction.

90% is redacted for a reason along these lines. So how is that statement "observably incorrect"?
Percentage of the visible that is based upon Steele/dossier/articles/the like/Fusion GPS + percentage that is redacted and unknown.

It's not as if you were even close to correct.
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:09 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stumppy View Post
Yes, I read the part about media and got the implication about the dossier.

I've scrolled through the entire thing. Ya know what, I'll bet 90% of it is redacted. There is no way in hell anyone could come up with an accurate description of why the warrant was issued until it is all unredacted.
The truth and facts are secondary. Heavily redacted documents let either side draw the conclusion they want.

And make no mistake, they want it.

Buzz words and spin. Truth be damned.
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:13 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by JakeLV View Post
The truth and facts are secondary. Heavily redacted documents let either side draw the conclusion they want.

And make no mistake, they want it.

Buzz words and spin. Truth be damned.
What's my side on this, and how does your post in any way apply to it?
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:18 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
What's my side on this, and how does your post in any way apply to it?
I think youíd be the best source of answers to those questions, assuming there are any.
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:24 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by frozenchief View Post
You obviously have little to no experience dealing with federal warrants. Judges rarely make independent evaluations of the evidence presented, which is all the more distressing after Leon. And if you donít know what I mean by Leon, you should know you are talking out your ass.

FISA isnít necessarily governed by Leon but FISA is not supposed to be the basis for criminal charges. Further, the affidavit does not disclose that Page was instrumental in the prosecution and apprehension of Russian spies a few years prior. Page went to the FBI and based on his cooperation, the FBI prosecuted a whole Russian spy ring. The FISA warrant does not disclose this, nor does it give a reason why Page is now a suspect for recruitment by the Russians.

This is a major Franks issue. Again, if you donít understand Franks, you donít understand the significance of this omission.

Maybe itís because Iíve been a federal defense attorney for a couple of decades but this stinks. It stinks worse than the tons of salmon that die and rot in south central Alaska rivers in the fall.
I hear what you are saying. What's your opinion given the FBI disclosed that potential bias (Steele)? And that most CIs have some sort of bias and aren't coming into this as a completely neutral party with no bias, yet warrants are still granted? (I'd really like to know your perspective - I'm not trolling).

I understand the concern around the funding of the dossier, but Steele was not some random person with a beef with Trump or Carter page. He was a respected MI6 intel officer with expertise specific to Russia. Is there not ample opportunity for this info to have been corroborated by other sources and methods?

I guess my point is that there's so much that we do not know or have access to, how could you realistically jump to the conclusion that the initial warrant and subsequent renewals were awarded without merit?
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:28 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by JakeLV View Post
The truth and facts are secondary. Heavily redacted documents let either side draw the conclusion they want.

And make no mistake, they want it.
Yes and no. Discovery in a criminal case is frequently redacted, omitting names and other details. Figuring out discovery in a federal criminal case is like doing a connect the dots with half the dots missing. After a bit you learn where certain info should be.

Here, there’s no information about Page’s past history in helping FBI to prosecute Russian spy rings or why the FBI has probable cause to think he’s changed, although there is discussion of some Russian activity directed at Page. Page has already been ID’d as an informant in the previous prosecution so there’s no reason to redact info about his role.

The warrant says info came from the State Department, not the FBI or other US allies. But we’ve seen that the FBI had Papodopolous under investigation. They fed him info through CIA/State Department sources and then when he reported it back to CIA/State Department sources, they used that as grounds for investigation.

The FBI uses CI’s. Federal law enforcement has come under fire for not disclosing negative info about their CI’s. As a defense attorney, I’d would be reading this wondering “Who is the CI and what can I get on the CI?” CI #1appears to be Steele, which is a problem for the FBI since portions of the Steele dossier have been directly contradicted. Events such as when persons were in Moscow have been disproven yet the reasons to doubt the CI are not listed.

Part of the problem is the warrant relies upon news when much of this “news” was leaked by FBI and DOJ officials who were hostile to Trump. Yet that is not discussed.

Release the whole thing. Thus far it stinks
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:41 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by rockymountainchief View Post
I hear what you are saying. What's your opinion given the FBI disclosed that potential bias (Steele)? And that most CIs have some sort of bias and aren't coming into this as a completely neutral party with no bias, yet warrants are still granted? (I'd really like to know your perspective - I'm not trolling).

I understand the concern around the funding of the dossier, but Steele was not some random person with a beef with Trump or Carter page. He was a respected MI6 intel officer with expertise specific to Russia. Is there not ample opportunity for this info to have been corroborated by other sources and methods?

I guess my point is that there's so much that we do not know or have access to, how could you realistically jump to the conclusion that the initial warrant and subsequent renewals were awarded without merit?
Thank you for an intelligent question. I believe they are awarded without merit because of at least the following reasons:

1) Iíve read more federal warrants than I can count and this does not really specify a crime. It discusses meetings and news reports and reactions of law makers but nowhere is there a specific tit for that for anything Page agreed to or was approached about.

2) thereís no discussion about Pageís history in actually being a witness against Russians who were spying on the US or reasons to think he had changed. Pageís ID as a witness in that case is already known so thereís no reason for redaction.

3) Stephen Halper (CIA/State Department employee who worked on the first Bush presidential election in 1980) and that Maltese professor fed info the Papodopolous and Page in early 2016. That ďinfoĒ related to the Russians having Hillaryís emails. Papodopolous tells an Australian ambassador that Russia supposedly had Hillaryís emails. Thus the FBI was the source of the original reporting. That is not disclosed.

4) the Steele dossier was disproven in several respects. For example, Cohen was supposed to have been in Europe to meet the Russians in a certain date but he demonstrably was not there then. These details were not ever disclosed in the warrant.

There are numerous redactions but I dont see any substance. I see news reports, which are suspect for several reasons: reportersí bias; source bias; inaccurate or incomplete understanding; and incomplete information. In my experience, rather than cite news reports, agents would be talking to reporters and getting subpoenas to compel them to provide information about sources but that isnít here.

This seems to be ďWell, Steele said it and I read it in the paper so we want to start surveillance.Ē And that, in my opinion, is a woefully inappropriate basis to allow FISA surveillance on a US citizen.
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:44 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by JakeLV View Post
I think youíd be the best source of answers to those questions, assuming there are any.
You laid the charge.
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Old 07-22-2018, 12:45 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockymountainchief View Post
I hear what you are saying. What's your opinion given the FBI disclosed that potential bias (Steele)? And that most CIs have some sort of bias and aren't coming into this as a completely neutral party with no bias, yet warrants are still granted? (I'd really like to know your perspective - I'm not trolling).

I understand the concern around the funding of the dossier, but Steele was not some random person with a beef with Trump or Carter page. He was a respected MI6 intel officer with expertise specific to Russia. Is there not ample opportunity for this info to have been corroborated by other sources and methods?

I guess my point is that there's so much that we do not know or have access to, how could you realistically jump to the conclusion that the initial warrant and subsequent renewals were awarded without merit?
Thereís one other thing: if the DOJ had the goods on Page, he would have been arrested and threatened with decades in prison unless he cooperated. That heís walking around, almost 2years later, 15+ months after special counsel, tells me that they really had nothing.
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