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Old 10-06-2013, 11:01 PM  
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Better Call Saul



As I am sure many of y'all already know, a spinoff of "Breaking Bad" titled "Better Call Saul" will be airing in 2014. This is going to be a prequel to Breaking Bad and will be based on the character of Saul Goodman from "Breaking Bad."

I, for one, will be watching. I'm sure the majority of all of you other "Breaking Bad" fans will be as well. Might as well get the discussion going sooner rather than later.

So... what are your hopes, expectations and/or concerns with the show? Here are some of mine:

Hopes: I hope to see Saul do his thing in the courtroom. I hope to see strong, unique supporting characters. I hope to see Breaking Bad foreshadowing. I hope he has an intriguing paralegal and/or assistant. I hope to see Breaking Bad characters such as Fring, Mike, etc...whoever. I hope the show kicks ass.

Expectations: I don't expect it to be as good as "Breaking Bad" (because nothing else is, really), but I expect it to be good since Vince Gilligan is writing. I somewhat expect it to have an even balance of comedy and drama...since Saul undeniably provides a substantial amount of comedic relief in "Breaking Bad." I expect to see "courtroom Saul." I expect the "Breaking Bad" references and character cameos to be less than what I hope. If it isn't even a fraction as good as "Breaking Bad," I expect it to be better than 95% of everything else on TV, since there is some shitty shit on TV these days.

Concerns: I'd be a liar if I were to say that I didn't think this show has potential of flopping and certainly failing to meet the presumed high expectations of the audience. Don't get me wrong, I think it will be good... but I think it COULD suck if not executed properly. My main concern is Saul ultimately proving himself to be a "little dab will do ya" type of character, which would lead to a show centered around his character not working out. I am hoping that the character of Saul will not be so over-used and constantly over the top, that he becomes annoying to me, thus ruining his character for me altogether... Not saying I think this will be how it goes down...just saying I think there is a CHANCE of this being the case, which prompts me to believe that a strong supporting cast is VITAL in terms of the amount of success/quality this show will accumulate. All in all, I don't think VG will steer us in an unfortunate direction though...I think they'll pull it off.

Thoughts?

DISCUS!!!!

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Old 04-01-2015, 04:07 PM   #451
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Mike's the kind of guy who would carry a gun to a drug deal but not let anyone around him know that he was carrying.
My thoughts as well
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Old 04-01-2015, 04:35 PM   #452
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The episodes keep getting better. I was wondering when Jimmy would figure out his brother was a rat. Now they are both screwed. At least Jimmy is creative enough to turn into Saul later. Chuck will end up in a rubber room.

And the scene with Mike was classic.
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Old 04-01-2015, 06:31 PM   #453
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following ABA guidelines and all that other b.s aside.. Chuck could have at least have been the bigger brother and let him on for this case.. pushing him to be an honest attorney.. but Chuck let his selfish ego get in the way
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Old 04-01-2015, 08:13 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
True.

But that's also the mark of a well-written show. I think a smart show is wise to show human fallibility there in Chuck - none of us are immune to pride and being the 'favored' sibling is a nice source of it. A smart viewer recognizes that this doesn't make Chuck the devil. It makes him a dynamic, relateable character in a very artfully crafted show.
Although I'm just quoting this post, I'm going to respond to both in kind.

None of us would have faulted Chuck had he just been honest with Jimmy. He could have told him that he didn't think Jimmy should get a job at HHM right away, that he should build a name on his own first to set aside issues of nepotism, but he didn't do that. Instead, he sent his partner down to act like a hatchet man on Jimmy's aspiration.

He could have told Jimmy that he doesn't believe that he's earned the spot yet, and he could have supported Howard's statement at the HHM meeting (instead of acting shocked at such a choice).

His cowardice and deceitfulness in handling the situation with his brother (who has also been his sole caretaker and only real advocate) is beyond the pale.

Moreover, Chuck's rationale may hold up to the viewer, but Chuck and HHM both lack the omniscience that the viewer of the show has. We know things they don't.

What does HHM know about Jimmy's prosecution of the case? They know the info he has collected and the case he's built. What do they know about the Kettleman case? That after the Kettlemans fired HHM and went to Jimmy because they didn't like the deal he got them to return and accept the deal that was previously unpalatable.

What does Chuck know? He knows that Jimmy has been busting his ass as a PD and doing good work. The shadiest thing Chuck even has a clue of is the billboard stunt.

We know about Mike's hijinks and Jimmy accepting the bribe, but neither HHM nor Chuck do, and that's integral to an evaluation of their rationale because we know they aren't making decisions with the information we have.
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Old 04-01-2015, 11:30 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
Although I'm just quoting this post, I'm going to respond to both in kind.

None of us would have faulted Chuck had he just been honest with Jimmy. He could have told him that he didn't think Jimmy should get a job at HHM right away, that he should build a name on his own first to set aside issues of nepotism, but he didn't do that. Instead, he sent his partner down to act like a hatchet man on Jimmy's aspiration.

He could have told Jimmy that he doesn't believe that he's earned the spot yet, and he could have supported Howard's statement at the HHM meeting (instead of acting shocked at such a choice).

His cowardice and deceitfulness in handling the situation with his brother (who has also been his sole caretaker and only real advocate) is beyond the pale.

Moreover, Chuck's rationale may hold up to the viewer, but Chuck and HHM both lack the omniscience that the viewer of the show has. We know things they don't.

What does HHM know about Jimmy's prosecution of the case? They know the info he has collected and the case he's built. What do they know about the Kettleman case? That after the Kettlemans fired HHM and went to Jimmy because they didn't like the deal he got them to return and accept the deal that was previously unpalatable.

What does Chuck know? He knows that Jimmy has been busting his ass as a PD and doing good work. The shadiest thing Chuck even has a clue of is the billboard stunt.

We know about Mike's hijinks and Jimmy accepting the bribe, but neither HHM nor Chuck do, and that's integral to an evaluation of their rationale because we know they aren't making decisions with the information we have.
Very nice opining on the perspective of audience knowledge vs character knowledge that often gets overlooked
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Old 04-02-2015, 09:25 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
Although I'm just quoting this post, I'm going to respond to both in kind.

None of us would have faulted Chuck had he just been honest with Jimmy. He could have told him that he didn't think Jimmy should get a job at HHM right away, that he should build a name on his own first to set aside issues of nepotism, but he didn't do that. Instead, he sent his partner down to act like a hatchet man on Jimmy's aspiration.

He could have told Jimmy that he doesn't believe that he's earned the spot yet, and he could have supported Howard's statement at the HHM meeting (instead of acting shocked at such a choice).

His cowardice and deceitfulness in handling the situation with his brother (who has also been his sole caretaker and only real advocate) is beyond the pale.

Moreover, Chuck's rationale may hold up to the viewer, but Chuck and HHM both lack the omniscience that the viewer of the show has. We know things they don't.

What does HHM know about Jimmy's prosecution of the case? They know the info he has collected and the case he's built. What do they know about the Kettleman case? That after the Kettlemans fired HHM and went to Jimmy because they didn't like the deal he got them to return and accept the deal that was previously unpalatable.

What does Chuck know? He knows that Jimmy has been busting his ass as a PD and doing good work. The shadiest thing Chuck even has a clue of is the billboard stunt.

We know about Mike's hijinks and Jimmy accepting the bribe, but neither HHM nor Chuck do, and that's integral to an evaluation of their rationale because we know they aren't making decisions with the information we have.
But Chuck may also have a fair amount of insight into 'Slippin' Jimmy' that the audience also doesn't have. It could very easily be that past knowledge along with the present knowledge of Jimmy's backslide with the billboard that makes him wary of pretty much everything surrounding Jimmy. If you're friends with a reformed alcoholic and you walk into his house while he's drinking a Budweiser, are you going to assume that's the only drink he's had that day? Week? Month? Of course not - you're going to assume he's fallen off the wagon outright. Chuck assumed the same of Jimmy and Chuck was absolutely right.

I'm sure we've all heard it from a parent at some point whenever we get scolded for something we didn't do - "well consider it a scolding for something I didn't catch ya doing..." Well that's kinda what we're looking at here with Chuck. It's pretty hard to say "well Chuck didn't know about all that shady shit" when Chuck got it right and likely got it right due to decades of past experience with Jimmy.

Like I said - I absolutely agree that Chuck's deceit was what made this objectionable, but it was also exceedingly human and what makes him a well written character. If you have a willing hatchetman and you're dealing with a family member, virtually all of us would try to use a proxy to save us from the brunt of turning away family. Why wouldn't you? I don't even have a huge problem with that.

The only place I see Chuck truly failing as a human being was in how caustically he explained all of it to Jimmy.
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:10 AM   #457
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There'd be no story or no drama if Chuck hadn't betrayed Saul. I couldn't believe he did it though. Last thing I expected. Though I expected Saul to get screwed somehow.The financial offer was still good though. Saul should have: 1) Just taken the pay-out offer and not pushed his brother to quit 2) Or take it to another law firm. Not doing either shows why he winds up as he does later. (in BB) If Saul were more rational there'd be no drama story either. Same for his brother using the cell phone instead of calling his boss over to his home to discuss the case.
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:15 AM   #458
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There'd be no story or no drama if Chuck hadn't betrayed Saul. I couldn't believe he did it though. Last thing I expected. Though I expected Saul to get screwed somehow.The financial offer was still good though. Saul should have: 1) Just taken the pay-out offer and not pushed his brother to quit 2) Or take it to another law firm. Not doing either shows why he winds up as he does later. (in BB) If Saul were more rational there'd be no drama story either. Same for his brother using the cell phone instead of calling his boss over to his home to discuss the case.
RE: the bolded part... I think he did that because he wanted his brother to admit what he did. He knew Chuck was calling the shots from behind Hamlin.
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:28 AM   #459
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The only place I see Chuck truly failing as a human being was in how caustically he explained all of it to Jimmy.
Chuck's bullshit hubris is awful. He literally thinks he's better than Jimmy. Jimmy, who has basically waited on him hand and foot during his illness. Jimmy who worked a shit clerking job while also getting a law degree and passing the bar.

Chuck thinks he's better than Jimmy, just as lots of high society rich people think they're better than those "below" them and think that there's something inherent in them that is superior to other people that justifies their success. Obviously, Jimmy's past is shady and he does some morally questionable things in his attempt to hustle, but Chuck's self-righteous monolog on the sanctity of the law and how Jimmy doesn't appreciate it was just self-righteous BS.
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:28 AM   #460
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RE: the bolded part... I think he did that because he wanted his brother to admit what he did. He knew Chuck was calling the shots from behind Hamlin.
Well, yeah, that's true. At first, I didn't see it that way, until he mentioned what he found on the phone. That was my first reaction though.
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:46 AM   #461
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Chuck's bullshit hubris is awful. He literally thinks he's better than Jimmy. Jimmy, who has basically waited on him hand and foot during his illness. Jimmy who worked a shit clerking job while also getting a law degree and passing the bar.

Chuck thinks he's better than Jimmy, just as lots of high society rich people think they're better than those "below" them and think that there's something inherent in them that is superior to other people that justifies their success. Obviously, Jimmy's past is shady and he does some morally questionable things in his attempt to hustle, but Chuck's self-righteous monolog on the sanctity of the law and how Jimmy doesn't appreciate it was just self-righteous BS.
Including what university Jimmy attended. I mean if you pass the Bar you passed it, right? I know there's better schools and some that have more prestige but even Abe Lincoln was self-taught and become a president.

Some just lack the means and do whatever they can.
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:22 AM   #462
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Chuck's bullshit hubris is awful. He literally thinks he's better than Jimmy. Jimmy, who has basically waited on him hand and foot during his illness. Jimmy who worked a shit clerking job while also getting a law degree and passing the bar.

Chuck thinks he's better than Jimmy, just as lots of high society rich people think they're better than those "below" them and think that there's something inherent in them that is superior to other people that justifies their success. Obviously, Jimmy's past is shady and he does some morally questionable things in his attempt to hustle, but Chuck's self-righteous monolog on the sanctity of the law and how Jimmy doesn't appreciate it was just self-righteous BS.
Chuck is a better lawyer. Jimmy's a better person.
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:46 AM   #463
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Chuck's bullshit hubris is awful. He literally thinks he's better than Jimmy. Jimmy, who has basically waited on him hand and foot during his illness. Jimmy who worked a shit clerking job while also getting a law degree and passing the bar.

Chuck thinks he's better than Jimmy, just as lots of high society rich people think they're better than those "below" them and think that there's something inherent in them that is superior to other people that justifies their success. Obviously, Jimmy's past is shady and he does some morally questionable things in his attempt to hustle, but Chuck's self-righteous monolog on the sanctity of the law and how Jimmy doesn't appreciate it was just self-righteous BS.
Jimmy doesn't appreciate it.

Put yourself in Chuck's seat - he's made himself a millionaire and the big swinging dick at a massive firm he built from the ground up using 'conventional' methods. He's surrounded everyday by other top-shelf attorneys who are going to have exceptional pedigrees. Of course se sees the world with a slant that favors the blue-blooded, top school, top tier bias - we all see it from where we sit and his chair is pretty much resting atop a mountain of money that this worldview made for him.

Jimmy does take shortcuts. He does use methods that are definitely impermissible and likely flat out illegal. For someone that created a monster from the ground up and has been insulated at the top of that monster for years, that's absolutely going to rub him raw.
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:52 AM   #464
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Chuck is a better lawyer. Jimmy's a better person.
I don't think there's a ton of evidence of that. Jimmy had a teenager step in front of a car for a payday. It wasn't until Jimmy was on the hook defending a client that was about to get blown out of the water that he made the morally correct decision to return his bribe (but only after he hired someone to break into their home). Even then, had he not known that he was going down as part of a conspiracy by accepting the bribe, he wouldn't have given that money back.

It's the sainthood of Jimmy that I don't quite understand here. This is a guy who, in BB, not so subtly encourages Walt to commit more than one murder.

Chuck might be a bad brother; I'll grant you. So far, that's the only bit of insight we have to his underlying character. Moreover, even as a bad brother, he helped Jimmy to the point that he was able to build that case into anything at all and then worked with Hamlin to get him a damn sweet deal.

I know he's supposed to be the black hat here and Jimmy's supposed to be the flawed anti-hero, but I don't see any reason to hold up Jimmy as virtuous here while blasting Chuck.
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:53 AM   #465
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Jimmy doesn't appreciate it.

Put yourself in Chuck's seat - he's made himself a millionaire and the big swinging dick at a massive firm he built from the ground up using 'conventional' methods. He's surrounded everyday by other top-shelf attorneys who are going to have exceptional pedigrees. Of course se sees the world with a slant that favors the blue-blooded, top school, top tier bias - we all see it from where we sit and his chair is pretty much resting atop a mountain of money that this worldview made for him.

Jimmy does take shortcuts. He does use methods that are definitely impermissible and likely flat out illegal. For someone that created a monster from the ground up and has been insulated at the top of that monster for years, that's absolutely going to rub him raw.
Prior to Chuck giving it to him without lube the first time, he didn't do anything impermissible, he just went to an online school, of which he obviously busted his butt to learn the law and learned enough to pass the bar. After Chuck ****ed him in the asshole, then he had went back to do desperate/dumb things. It wouldn't have been inappropriate for Jimmy to be come an associate at the firm, as long as he wasn't reporting to Chuck.

What Jimmy should have done was to go get a job at a different firm, rather than try to set out on his own. I don't think they addressed that in the show, but it would have been a lot easier road for him if he would have got on at a different firm.
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