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Old 01-11-2017, 09:23 AM  
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John McCain: Schmuck Supreme

Sworn Donald Trump enemy John McCain admitted Wednesday that he passed the dossier of claims of a Russian blackmail plot against the president-elect.
The Arizona senator issued a public statement amid mounting questions of his exact role in the affair - and how a document riddled with errors and unverifiable claims came to be published.
'Late last year, I received sensitive information that has since been made public,' he said.
'Upon examination of the contents, and unable to make a judgment about their accuracy, I delivered the information to the Director of the FBI.
'That has been the extent of my contact with the FBI or any other government agency regarding this issue.'
But the 2008 Republican loser, who disowned his party's candidate weeks before the election, may have been far more intimately involved than that.

The chain of how the document reached the FBI is not officially known.
However Carl Bernstein, the Watergate reporter who contributed to the first story about its existence, published by CNN on Tuesday afternoon, suggested that McCain was handed it by a former British ambassador to Moscow.
Bernstein told CNN: 'It came from a former British MI6 agent who was hired from a political opposition research firm in Washington who was doing work about Donald Trump for both republican and democratic candidates opposed to Trump.
'They were looking at Trumps business ties, they saw some questionable things about Russians, about his businesses in Russia, they in turn hired this MI6 former investigator, he then came up with additional information from his Russian sources, he was very concerned by the implications of it, he then took it to an FBI colleague that he had known in his undercover work for years, he took it to this FBI man in Rome who turned it over to the bureau in Washington in August.
'And then, a former British ambassador to Russia independently was made aware of these findings and he took the information to John McCain – Senator John McCain of Arizona – in the period just after the election, and showed it to McCain – additional findings.
'McCain was sufficiently disturbed by what he read to take it to FBI director James Comey himself personally, they had a five minute meeting the two men, very little was said, McCain turned it over to him and is now awaiting what the FBI’s response is to that information.'
The identity of the former British ambassador has not been disclosed.
Only one former British ambassador to Washington remains in UK government service, Sir Tim Barrow, who went on to be Foreign Office political director and is now Britain's ambassador to the European Union.
McCain's long-standing opposition to Trump is well known although he only formally ended support for the Republican candidate in October, when the notorious 'p****' tape emerged.

The Arizona senator said at the time: '"Donald Trump’s behavior... concluding with the disclosure of his demeaning comments about women and his boasts about sexual assaults, make it impossible to continue to offer even conditional support for his candidacy.'
US intelligence agencies have claimed that Russian spies hacked the Democratic National Committee and leaked damaging emails designed to undermine Hillary Clinton's campaign for president.


The new information, which has not been independently verified, claims that Russian officials also gathered highly damaging information on Trump, but only released the details attacking Clinton through the WikiLeaks website.
The Kremlin has denied all of the allegations, while Trump tweeted: 'FAKE NEWS - A TOTAL POLITICAL WITCH HUNT'.

However, McCain was so concerned about the information contained within the 35-page dossier, which included allegations that Trump had hired prostitutes in Moscow to urinate on a bed that had previously been used by US President Barack Obama and his wife Michelle, that he passed the information onto the FBI
CNN reported that intelligence chiefs had presented Trump with a two-page summary of the dossier late last week following a briefing with President Obama.
It is not known if it included the most salacious details.
Trump has consistently denied that Russian intelligence agencies had launched a massive cyber attack ahead of last November's election.
The dossier which McCain passed to FBI Director James Comey was compiled by the former MI6 man.
The memos describe sex videos involving prostitutes filmed during a 2013 visit by Trump to a luxury Moscow hotel, supposedly as a potential means for blackmail.
They also suggest Russian officials proposed lucrative deals in order to win influence over the Republican real estate magnate.
One claim, that special counsel to Trump Michael Cohen met with Kremlin officials in Prague in August 2016 has been branded as 'fake news'.
Cohen denied that he was central 'to the ongoing secret liaison relationship between the New York tycoon's campaign and the Russian leadership'.
Cohen tweeted a photograph of his passport and said he had never visited Prague.
According to reports, the former MI6 man had been hired to conduct 'opposition research' on the Trump campaign by first Republican enemies of Trump, then Democratic ones.
Russia denied the claims, with President Vladimir Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov telling journalists: 'The Kremlin does not have compromising information on Trump.'
The Kremlin spokesman called the dossier a 'total fake' and 'an obvious attempt to harm our bilateral relations'.
Earlier, the Kremlin had denied hacking the Democratic National Committee and leaking information to deliberately weaken Hillary Clinton's campaign.
Donald Trump's transition team has repeatedly denied allegations that it had received any help from Moscow.


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Old 01-12-2017, 10:15 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
If anyone should be crying foul it should be the Sanders supporters and campaign.
Why is this forgotten?

People want to complain about the electoral college but seem ok with KNOWING the DNC chooses their nominee through the power structure and ignores ALL the votes of their own party.
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:17 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Rausch View Post
Why is this forgotten?

People want to complain about the electoral college but seem ok with KNOWING the DNC chooses their nominee through the power structure and ignores ALL the votes of their own party.
Because Bernie the Bitch kept his mouth shut and played loyal foot soldier to his Party. Yes he SHOUlD be all over this and SHOULD have never shut up about the rigging. But he's a sellout joke of a human.
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:18 AM   #183
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Still whining, I see. Get over it. You demanded specifics, but refused to get specific yourself. You're offended by someone characterizing your position yet you have no problem doing the same with a dollop of snark on top.

The guy playing team politics here is you, not me. I'm the Trump guy who thinks his fellow Trump guys have lost their minds. You're the Trump guy marching in lockstep.

And finally, I'm no more fan of Hillary than you are. She just doesn't make me lose my mind and ignore more important, current issues.
I demanded specifics when you accused me of an ominous but ambiguous position [ie, the clouded shill].

You demanded specifics when I referenced a vast and complicated line of malfeasance that is known and has been referenced, catalogued and analyzed vigorously and repeatedly over years right here.

There is a world of difference between expecting people to be specific if they accuse people of doing something right at that moment, but won't specify what exactly they are accusing them of, and expecting a re-catalog of every detail of a long and complex issue every time the issue is revisited, however tangentially.

I'm not accusing you of doing it in this specific instance, but it's a reliable strategy to create busy-work and delay in a debate. When one side begins making substantive points, reset. In Hillary's case, no matter how far into detail the discussion is, reset with 'what do you have against her, anyway' or 'what criminal acts has she ever committed and why are they criminal' etc. In the case of global warming, you see it all the time, when people see their point being obliterated and reset to 'what do you have against clean water anyway' or 'what's wrong with trusting scientists to make the world better.'


Secondly, you can't have it both ways. Saying part of my problem is failing to tie the underlying issues to the specifics of Trump and Hillary, and then accusing me of shilling for Trump and vilifying Hillary.

It really is sad that, for someone who used to actually put thought into issues, you seem to be falling into the buzzword demagoguery game.

Lockstep, shilling, clouded by hatred, . . . what's next? Everyone is a ___tard, or __NJ, maybe greasers and socs? Sharks and Jets?

And this is like the third time you've maintained that your petty and unmerited name-calling is justified because of 'snark'

To be clear - I am stating that calling me a Trump shill with judgment clouded by Hillary is baseless in this discussion here, as all I've weighed in on is the relative threat of foreign influence in elections versus electing incompetent and corrupt leaders.

Is it unfair to ask the basis for alleging that I engaged in snark, or is that too much detail to ask?

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Old 01-12-2017, 10:24 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Rausch View Post
Why is this forgotten?

People want to complain about the electoral college but seem ok with KNOWING the DNC chooses their nominee through the power structure and ignores ALL the votes of their own party.
Not sure. Dem's don't really want to deal with the reality of something like this within their own party. Maybe Bernie was afraid of being wiped out by the Clinton mafia?
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:29 AM   #185
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In the interest of clarity, because it seems increasingly that details fail to register with people here.

I didn't weigh in on this issue at all until patteau made the statement that this whole 'Russian invasion' thing was so much more important than than how corrupt or incompetent a candidate might turn out to be.

I simply asked him to clarify whether that was indeed his position, or whether I was reading the implications of his phrasing wrong.

Patteau is the one who turned it into 'oooh, you love Donald and want to have his babies, and your brain isn't working right because you hate hate hate the woman politician.'

I've been pretty circumspect about throwing around punches in the 'team red/blue' arena since 11/9 [never forget] as there is clearly some emotional trauma some need to work through and I'm giving them space to do that.

But if people are going to insist on all sides in continuing the retarded narrative, I guess I have to decide whether to wade back in and start calling people on their shit, no matter how emotion, grief-driven and temporary said shit is, or to simply say **** all y'all and write everyone off as irredeemably ensnared in personality conflicts to have meaningful conversations anymore.
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:31 AM   #186
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Not sure. Dem's don't really want to deal with the reality of something like this within their own party. Maybe Bernie was afraid of being wiped out by the Clinton mafia?
Or perhaps no man/woman is as important as the message...
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:34 AM   #187
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But if people are going to insist on all sides in continuing the retarded narrative,...
And both clearly do.

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I guess I have to decide whether to wade back in and start calling people on their shit, no matter how emotion, grief-driven and temporary said shit is, or to simply say **** all y'all and write everyone off as irredeemably ensnared in personality conflicts to have meaningful conversations anymore.
You're one step from a political-brain-cleanse.

You just need to keep expelling the toxins...
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:42 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Rausch View Post
Why is this forgotten?

People want to complain about the electoral college but seem ok with KNOWING the DNC chooses their nominee through the power structure and ignores ALL the votes of their own party.
It's because arcane rules in how the Democratic party chooses its nominee, though imperfect, are less ridiculous than the un-democratic winner-take-all allocation (in many states) of presidential electors on the Republican side. When the field is flooded with candidates--as it was this time, it allows for an outsider (like Trump) to sweep in and steal a win that would be much less likely on the Democratic side.

The DNC's rules are rigged against maverick candidates, whereas the RNC's format rewards factional candidates in a crowded field. Both circumvent the spirit of modern democracy. The RNC's format is more odious, for many of us, though. Proof? That Trump was so unpopular with most establishment Republicans. I suspect there will, eventually, be a move by the RNC to reduce the possibility of similar outcomes in the future. Which, despite public anti-establishment sentiments, is within the right of the parties to do. Whether or not they would be wise to do it, is an entirely different question of course.

In other words, the RNC "chose" their nominee in a process that ignores a BIGGER slice of their party.
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:47 AM   #189
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You've come undone.
That happened to him weeks ago. Now, it's just a question of whether he snaps out of it before he goes full Donger.
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:50 AM   #190
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It's because arcane rules in how the Democratic party chooses its nominee, though imperfect, are less ridiculous than the un-democratic winner-take-all allocation of presidential electors on the Republican side.
Uh, no.

It's the exact opposite.

Super-delegates can weigh in two months in to a primary and it's over for any other Dem.

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When the field is flooded with candidates--as it was this time, it allows for an outsider (like Trump) to sweep in and steal a win that would be much less likely on the Democratic side.
No, the Reps have just had shitty candidates for almost 20 years. We're use to being force-fed crackers and Mad Dog 20/20 and being told it's a religious experience.

It's not. It's a farce.

The reps just quit the game first.

It's time for Dems to quit the game and take their party back.

I miss liberals being about expanding your mind and your experiences instead of trying to shrink them and create safe echo chambers...
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:52 AM   #191
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I demanded specifics when you accused me of an ominous but ambiguous position [ie, the clouded shill].

You demanded specifics when I referenced a vast and complicated line of malfeasance that is known and has been referenced, catalogued and analyzed vigorously and repeatedly over years right here.
No, this isn't right. I politely asked you to tell me what your specific concerns were that elevate them above any concern you might have for Russian interference. You refused to engage in the discussion and instead responded with your dismissive, snarky, mischaracterization of my position in post 134.

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There is a world of difference between expecting people to be specific if they accuse people of doing something right at that moment, but won't specify what exactly they are accusing them of, and expecting a re-catalog of every detail of a long and complex issue every time the issue is revisited, however tangentially.
I wasn't looking for a "re-catalog". One example of the type of extreme malfeasance that rises above the level of a foreign power interfering with our elections would have sufficed. I was giving you the chance to wow me with something I've somehow missed. You weren't interested in a discussion though.

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Secondly, you can't have it both ways. Saying part of my problem is failing to tie the underlying issues to the specifics of Trump and Hillary, and then accusing me of shilling for Trump and vilifying Hillary.
Two things wrong with this.

1. I didn't accuse YOU of having the problem, I said WE were having a problem because you were determined to stick to generalities and I was looking for a specific example of malfeasance. You, to your discredit, immediately and defensively shot back that I had a problem because I wasn't willing to discuss the matter rationally (apparently without irony).

2. I didn't accuse you of being a shill for Trump. I accused you of either shilling for Trump OR hating Hillary. I don't think there's any doubt about the latter. The only question is whether or not it's warped your ability to put these competing concerns in perspective. My position is that it apparently has (seeing no examples of malfeasance that had previously eluded me), while I'm sure you would see it otherwise.

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It really is sad that, for someone who used to actually put thought into issues, you seem to be falling into the buzzword demagoguery game.

Lockstep, shilling, clouded by hatred, . . . what's next? Everyone is a ___tard, or __NJ, maybe greasers and socs? Sharks and Jets?

And this is like the third time you've maintained that your petty and unmerited name-calling is justified because of 'snark'

To be clear - I am stating that calling me a Trump shill with judgment clouded by Hillary is baseless in this discussion here, as all I've weighed in on is the relative threat of foreign influence in elections versus electing incompetent and corrupt leaders.

Is it unfair to ask the basis for alleging that I engaged in snark, or is that too much detail to ask?
No, that's not unfair. As I mentioned above, I found post 134 offensive. Not just the "got it" snark at the end, but the ham-handed recharacterization of my position.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:00 AM   #192
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Uh, no.

It's the exact opposite.

Super-delegates can weigh in two months in to a primary and it's over for any other Dem.

No, the Reps have just had shitty candidates for almost 20 years. We're use to being force-fed crackers and Mad Dog 20/20 and being told it's a religious experience.

It's not. It's a farce.

The reps just quit the game first.

It's time for Dems to quit the game and take their party back.

I miss liberals being about expanding your mind and your experiences instead of trying to shrink them and create safe echo chambers...
It's NOT the opposite. Allowing a factional or fringe candidate to steal your nomination is much more anti-democratic than a Super Delegate rubber-stamping of a proportional allocation of delegates. "Weighing-in early" does not dictate the outcome; never has.

The very idea of "winner-take-all" spits into the face of democracy.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:02 AM   #193
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No, this isn't right. I politely asked you to tell me what your specific concerns were that elevate them above any concern you might have for Russian interference. You refused to engage in the discussion and instead responded with your dismissive, snarky, mischaracterization of my position in post 134.



I wasn't looking for a "re-catalog". One example of the type of extreme malfeasance that rises above the level of a foreign power interfering with our elections would have sufficed. I was giving you the chance to wow me with something I've somehow missed. You weren't interested in a discussion though.



Two things wrong with this.

1. I didn't accuse YOU of having the problem, I said WE were having a problem because you were determined to stick to generalities and I was looking for a specific example of malfeasance. You, to your discredit, immediately and defensively shot back that I had a problem because I wasn't willing to discuss the matter rationally (apparently without irony).

2. I didn't accuse you of being a shill for Trump. I accused you of either shilling for Trump OR hating Hillary. I don't think there's any doubt about the latter. The only question is whether or not it's warped your ability to put these competing concerns in perspective. My position is that it apparently has (seeing no examples of malfeasance that had previously eluded me), while I'm sure you would see it otherwise.



No, that's not unfair. As I mentioned above, I found post 134 offensive. Not just the "got it" snark at the end, but the ham-handed recharacterization of my position.
What you characterize as snark, I stand behind as an honest attempt at summarizing your priorities.

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Integrity of protecting electoral system from attempted foreign influence on the voter's decision making process prioritized over integrity of elected officials carrying out governmental duties.

Got it.
You stated a blanket hierarchy while discussing these specific instances. I asked you if that was a hierarchy your stood behind on general principle.

I'm not going to go into a detailed thesis on the specifics of either the Russian interference or Hillary's malfeasance, because at this point they're largely moot, and my point wasn't about the specifics of this present case, but the general prioritizing you were proclaiming.

You insist on specific concerns about Hillary's incompetence and corruption to tabulate against your vague intimation of 'Russian interference.' I believe that hewing strictly to the 'facts' of the instant matters is inferior thinking, both because the concepts can stand on their merits generally, and the specific facts in the instant matter are not agreed upon or established by consensus even now.

Don't think of it in terms of whether some specific thing Hillary might or might not have done was worse than 'Russian interference.' First off, you are insisting on the high ground of comparing rebuttable, or simply deniable, specifics against a spectre.

Think of it in terms of whether incompetence and corruption in actual elected officials is better or worse than attempts to sway voter sentiment by outsiders.

If you had such a problem with prioritizing the integrity of the electoral system from attempted foreign influence over the integrity of elected officials, point out how I'm missing your argument. Don't dismiss it as snark and insist on gliding back into a tired team Donald/team Hillary narrative.

Last edited by Baby Lee; 01-12-2017 at 11:08 AM..
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:03 AM   #194
Just Passin' By Just Passin' By is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
The very idea of "winner-take-all" spits into the face of democracy.
That's probably the stupidest thing anyone will read all day. At least we got it out of the way by noon.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:08 AM   #195
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Not sure. Dem's don't really want to deal with the reality of something like this within their own party. Maybe Bernie was afraid of being wiped out by the Clinton mafia?
Liberals always live in their own reality. They can't come to grips that their policies of the last eight years was soundly rejected so they conjure up the Russian hacking claims.
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