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Old 11-15-2014, 10:38 PM  
Wallcrawler Wallcrawler is offline
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Something of a moral dilemma

So, Im in position to take over the reigns of the store Im currently working in. Its a very small staff, three of us managers and four part time employees.

Things go pretty well most of the time, despite some maturity issues with my direct supervisor. He's only 26, and as far as the business goes, he knows literally everything. Theres no task or problem or issue that he cannot readily resolve within a few minutes.

However, when it comes to actually leading a team of people, this guy is ASS. For real. Schedule changes with little to no notice, making people stay longer so that he can leave early, calling people in early so that he can go home, and being a dick in general about requests for time off even if they are the required two weeks in advance.

So we have a part timer who does a decent job, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but the effort is there. He's decided that we are going to part ways with this person, but Im going to be the one to cut the ties.

Over the phone.

To me, this is complete bullshit. The guy being fired, we'll call him "Joe" is only being fired because he's called the boss out on multiple offenses of laziness, both just hanging out in back while on a shift, as well as the multiple counts of leaving early. Joe's broken plans repeatedly, without complaint, to come in early so Boss could leave early. No emergency, just tired of being there.

The first thing I tell Boss is that its chickenshit to fire someone over the phone. If Im going to take your ability to provide for your family from you, Im going to at least have the sac to look you in the face when I do it, and tell you why.

Boss gives zero ****s what I think, or what my view is. He's the boss, Im the subordinate, and my instructions are to call Joe in the morning and tell him that his services are no longer required.

If I refuse, Ill be documented for insubordination and my position to take over the business will take a substantial hit, because the third manager "Yes Man" is a bit spineless when it comes to taking a stand on anything, and simply does what he's told without question.

Now, I have no problem with Joe. Joe could be faster, and smarter, but Joe is always on time, always covers shifts when needed, and always works 100% of the time he is present. In short, dude's not perfect but he's doing everything he can at all times. That goes a long way in my book.

I don't really know what I should do. I mean I want to tell Boss to go **** himself and if he wants to be a chickenshit and fire Joe over the phone for being called out as a lazy **** from time to time, that's his problem and not mine.

On the other hand, I could lose my position to Yes Man and potentially screw myself out of a nice pay increase, perks, and better job security when Boss transfers in June.


Going over Boss' head is out of the question, as the District Manager and Boss are aquainted outside of work and have known each other for about 5 years.

So my choice is to call up Joe in the morning and tell him that he's fired and not be able to tell him exactly why he's being fired, or to tell my Boss to **** off and put my future at risk.

Its such a shit thing to do to someone, especially so close to Christmas.
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Old 11-15-2014, 11:44 PM   #46
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Something of a moral dilemma

Does your boss think you guys are buddies? If so, he may not think he is asking you to do anything that bad.

Also, it sounds like you only verbally expressed your disagreement about firing him over the phone, not firing him in general. If your main concern was the act of firing him at all, that should have been what you expressed, not the whole phone thing. For all you know there is more to it and he deserves to be fired so if you say you aren't sure he should be fired perhaps your boss could explain why he should be fired.

Then if its still clear he has to be fired and that there isn't a great reason beyond what you described, say you think that it should wait until after the holidays.
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Old 11-15-2014, 11:45 PM   #47
Abba-Dabba Abba-Dabba is offline
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Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan View Post
Depends if he's getting paid hourly. You fire him over the phone, he got no benefits to listening to his means of income crumble. When I go to interview associates that have stolen from my company, I ensure that they are paid for the time of the interview and think it is more worth while to look them in the eyes.
Listening for what? Look in the eyes for what That he was fired? Try to teach a lesson?

If there any legal concerns. You shouldn't be speaking to him in the first place. That should be handled any HR you have. And if the theft is serious enough. Let a attorney handle it.

You're making it more complicated than it is. Are you in a at-will state?
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Old 11-15-2014, 11:57 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by RubberSponge View Post
Listening for what? Look in the eyes for what That he was fired? Try to teach a lesson?

If there any legal concerns. You shouldn't be speaking to him in the first place. That should be handled any HR you have. And if the theft is serious enough. Let a attorney handle it.

You're making it more complicated than it is. Are you in a at-will state?
I meant he wasn't afforded the respect to see it face to face. Firing him over the phone doesn't give him a chance to look his accuser in the face and defend himself. It's cowardly.

In an entirely different scope, I like to do my interviews face to face because I like to establish a rapport with the associates I am interviewing. Did you interview the associate for the job over the phone, or face to face? To hire that associate, as the hiring employee, you wanted that respect, why can't the hired get that same respect when being fired?

As far as my job goes: I am an Investigator for Loss Prevention for my company. My job is to interview associates who were caught stealing to determine the amount of loss they caused and who else may be causing it. I am well trained in the legal boundaries of what my job entails and I make sure to never overstep those boundaries, but thanks.

You must be a lawyer.
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Old 11-15-2014, 11:59 PM   #49
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Is there any documentation started? Doesn't sound like the information given that there is a line of documentation on the guy.

Unless you want to separate with the employee and don't mind paying him unemployment. Then fire at-will. And since he is in an leadership position. Will the separation require a severance package?

Doesn't sound like this potential firing is very well thought out and very rash. Quite frankly it makes me wonder if the person wanting the guy fired is really the guy you want leading anything in any company.

Either way, you will never see me working for your company, nosiree
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Old 11-16-2014, 12:01 AM   #50
Abba-Dabba Abba-Dabba is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan View Post
I meant he wasn't afforded the respect to see it face to face. Firing him over the phone doesn't give him a chance to look his accuser in the face and defend himself. It's cowardly.

In an entirely different scope, I like to do my interviews face to face because I like to establish a rapport with the associates I am interviewing. Did you interview the associate for the job over the phone, or face to face? To hire that associate, as the hiring employee, you wanted that respect, why can't the hired get that same respect when being fired?

As far as my job goes: I am an Investigator for Loss Prevention for my company. My job is to interview associates who were caught stealing to determine the amount of loss they caused and who else may be causing it. I am well trained in the legal boundaries of what my job entails and I make sure to never overstep those boundaries, but thanks.

You must be a lawyer.
1st off. He shouldn't be meeting an accuser. Who the hell is running this show? Lord forbid. A good HR team would be livid.
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Old 11-16-2014, 12:02 AM   #51
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He's a part time employee. No unemployment. No severance.
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Old 11-16-2014, 12:03 AM   #52
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1st off. He shouldn't be meeting an accuser. Who the hell is running this show? Lord forbid. A good HR team would be livid.
You have no clue what you are talking about. Have you ever worked with a Loss Prevention Team?
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Old 11-16-2014, 12:06 AM   #53
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I like to do face to face interviews. I like the interaction and find myself in an interview for longer than I should be spending. A good time I would like to spend in any interview is at least an hour. But frequently finding myself looking at the clock and seeing a hour and a half has gone by.
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Old 11-16-2014, 12:08 AM   #54
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To add: you do realize that by law a company as the right to interview and reclaim any lost assets that occurred as a result of negligent behavior from one of their associates, right?

I have been doing this for over 8 year now for two separate companies and have gotten quite an abundant amount of judicial convictions in my time, none of which have landed me in trouble with any of my HR Depts.
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Old 11-16-2014, 12:09 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan View Post
You have no clue what you are talking about. Have you ever worked with a Loss Prevention Team?
Have I ever managed security guards? Contract or Proprietary security?
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Old 11-16-2014, 12:11 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan View Post
To add: you do realize that by law a company as the right to interview and reclaim any lost assets that occurred as a result of negligent behavior from one of their associates, right?

I have been doing this for over 8 year now for two separate companies and have gotten quite an abundant amount of judicial convictions in my time, none of which have landed me in trouble with any of my HR Depts.
You never have a person meet their accuser. You want to talk about face to face firing. Why wouldn't this person supervisor have the balls to take it up with the thief himself? That is his job FWIW. To manage the people under him.
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Old 11-16-2014, 12:14 AM   #57
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He's a part time employee. No unemployment. No severance.
Bye.



Next!
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Old 11-16-2014, 12:17 AM   #58
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You never have a person meet their accuser. You want to talk about face to face firing. Why wouldn't this person supervisor have the balls to take it up with the thief himself? That is his job FWIW. To manage the people under him.
I don't fire asshat, but I am the accuser and I tell them to their face what I know. I interview then they decide to suspend or terminate. I am just the person to find out how much or who else is involved. How about you stop talking about things you have not one clue about. Thanks.
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Old 11-16-2014, 12:23 AM   #59
Abba-Dabba Abba-Dabba is offline
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I don't fire asshat, but I am the accuser and I tell them to their face what I know. I interview then they decide to suspend or terminate. I am just the person to find out how much or who else is involved. How about you stop talking about things you have not one clue about. Thanks.

So you are the accuser and the person who finds out how much and who else is involved? I see no conflict there at all.
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Old 11-16-2014, 12:24 AM   #60
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Here's one.

4 yrs ago, thereabouts

Working for a Computer Hardware company, fired via text message by Sales Manager. Two weeks later I had my own company operating the business out of a condo.

About 2 years into my new venture I get word that this individual (now my ex sales mgr. at ex employer) was escorted out of my ex employers office by the police, due to theft.

So he was terminated.

we're entering our forth year and now have three offices a conference room and a 2,400ish SF warehouse.

It was a sweet few series' of months let me tell you.
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