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Old 05-24-2019, 08:59 AM  
NJChiefsFan27 NJChiefsFan27 is offline
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What is the conservative position on student loans?

Specifically two things.

1. Is there a problem with the way things are done currently?

2. If you believe the status quo is not working, what should be done from a policy perspective to address it?
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Old 05-26-2019, 02:59 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by RodeoPants2 View Post
Yes, I do. FWIW you have 5% wage growth for the high school in the first year, probably just a typo or whatever since it grows by 1% each year from $26k after that.
$25,000 is hardcoded then grows at .01 per year.


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Originally Posted by RodeoPants2 View Post
I also don't think 1% is realistic for wage growth, most COL raises are around 2%, and one of the reasons to get a college degree is to enable faster wager growth, not just a starting salary. But whatever, your parameters aren't completely unreasonable.
BLS says otherwise.

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The large error is that most people don't stop working at age 29.
Not my fault they aren't believers in the true way of FIRE.

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If you extend that forecast using your same assumptions to age 60, the college degree comes out substantially ahead - 1.1M vs. 750k.

The cross over age in your forecast would be around 32.

Neither scenario accounts for any big increases in wage (job-hopping / promotions). It also isn't factoring in interest expense for the college student. The point is the majority of people who choose college are forgoing a lot future earnings by opting out of the full-time workforce for four years (if not more).
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Old 05-26-2019, 04:38 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Once, again you got nuthin' and as usual stalking from thread to thread. You are the alternative version of DayeMania with the overuse emojis for your refutation. As expected, you reveal you've been educated by the state, yourself.
You seriously think there is an education crisis? Really? You do realize using terms like that make it obvious who the brainwashed person is right?
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Old 05-26-2019, 04:43 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Marcellus View Post
You seriously think there is an education crisis? Really? You do realize using terms like that make it obvious who the brainwashed person is right?
More like there is a student loan bubble. Tuition is way inflated due to student loans and since student loans can't be washed away in bankruptcy there is no risk for lenders to actually discern good risk from bad.
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Old 05-26-2019, 04:45 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Marcellus View Post
You seriously think there is an education crisis? Really? You do realize using terms like that make it obvious who the brainwashed person is right?
Yes there is, both with the student debt bubble and the dumbing-dumb of students over decades.

You don't even know how seriously dumbed-down kids have become since the mid 1980's starting in K-12 and those starting in the 90's and 2000s? If not, you're ignorant. Those are the young people who prefer socialism.

And it's not just the political indoctrination—you missed reporting on declining literacy rates and SAT scores apparently too.

You're right, you're not a conservative. Most conservative are up on this information. You seem to lean left like most NeoCons or perhaps were still in elementary, middle or high school during those years. No wonder you can't articulate an argument.

Posted in the same tone and spirit as Marcellus did.
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Old 05-26-2019, 05:28 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Marcellus View Post
You seriously think there is an education crisis? Really? You do realize using terms like that make it obvious who the brainwashed person is right?
Everything is a crisis. You need to learn to deal in extremes.

The student debt crisis...what % of students have zero debt...and something like $28 grand is average debt....but its a crisis cause somebody borrowed 200g. Maybe the crisis is the number who are walking away from their obligation....maybe, dunno.

Cost of tuition and fees are too high. Too many professors who do jack shit with assistant and associate professors overseeing too many grad students while they raise prices cause there is no shortage of cash since Obama nationalized the loan program....not a crisis but something no one in education will address.

Lets not forget we have schools turning out good kids, well educated with real values instilled by parents and decent teachers. Colleges and Universities do turn out enough decent grads that we know its possible. But they will face a day when the cost cripples State universities.

Enough for now, you can go back to practicing your crisis conduct...
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Old 05-26-2019, 06:28 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by HonestChieffan View Post
Everything is a crisis. You need to learn to deal in extremes.

The student debt crisis...what % of students have zero debt...and something like $28 grand is average debt....but its a crisis cause somebody borrowed 200g. Maybe the crisis is the number who are walking away from their obligation....maybe, dunno.

Cost of tuition and fees are too high. Too many professors who do jack shit with assistant and associate professors overseeing too many grad students while they raise prices cause there is no shortage of cash since Obama nationalized the loan program....not a crisis but something no one in education will address.

Lets not forget we have schools turning out good kids, well educated with real values instilled by parents and decent teachers. Colleges and Universities do turn out enough decent grads that we know its possible. But they will face a day when the cost cripples State universities.

Enough for now, you can go back to practicing your crisis conduct...
Yea the "crisis" is entirely preventable from a personal level. I do agree college tuition has gotten out of control but again you don't have to go to an expensive school to get a degree and make a good living. Its a personal choice.

BEP loves to talk about her kids for example, i used an example of my daughter just graduating college for $50K and she ignores it because it doesn't fit her crisis narrative.
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Old 05-26-2019, 07:47 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Discuss Thrower View Post
$25,000 is hardcoded then grows at .01 per year.
Your numbers simply don't reflect this. Unless you're saying $26,260 is 1% more than $25000.

OK, interesting.

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Neither scenario accounts for any big increases in wage (job-hopping / promotions). It also isn't factoring in interest expense for the college student. The point is the majority of people who choose college are forgoing a lot future earnings by opting out of the full-time workforce for four years (if not more).
But your own model shows that lifetime earnings for college grads exceed non-college starting at 32, and massively exceed them by age 60, even accounting for the 4 years of negative income. Like your own model literally makes the opposite point.

What's more, we have lots of data on lifetime earnings by educational attainment and they all tell the same story, college, graduate, and professional degrees are all outstanding financial investments.

Now, not everyone is capable of getting through college / grad / professional school, but that's a different story.
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Old 05-26-2019, 08:14 PM   #248
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Someone's having a temper tantrum because his reality is threatened.

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Originally Posted by AngryOldMen View Post
Everything is a crisis. You need to learn to deal in extremes.
Hasty generalizations are logical fallacies on which you rely too much—but worse when they are untruthful. Attributing "everything" being a crisis is a "lie." There you go again with your lying with exaggeration not using any facts but your own outrage and ranting accusing others of what you do just like a Democrat.

Apparently you've never had a problem with Common Core, Outcome Based Education (Clintons) and No Child Left Behind. Oh wait, the latter was Bush. So since it had an R connected to it, it was all good ( even though Ted Kennedy helped write it).

Did you react like a 2 year-old having a temper tantrum, when Reagan administration came out with their report called— A Nation at Risk —saying our public schools were failing. Amirite?

You think they've actually improved since then? No they haven't despite throwing billions into reforms. But everyone has their own standards, and apparently mine are higher than yours. For the amounts we have spent, the following results are pretty bad, but then it’s not a problem to you:
2014

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Approximately 32 million adults in the United States can’t read, according to the U.S. Department of Education and the National Institute of Literacy. The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development found that 50 percent of U.S. adults can’t read a book written at an eighth-grade level.
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Then there’s Illiteracy: An Incurable Disease or Education Malpractice? written by Robert W. Sweet, Jr., a former professional government education bureaucrat. Roughly a third of American adults are functionally illiterate, meaning they cannot read better than a third-grader, while government spending to combat illiteracy cost the taxpayers $463 billion between 1966 and 1996
Government schools do not educate. Kids are ruined by the 3rd grade with excessive labeling such as learning disabled and what not when it’s because they don’t teach reading the way it once was taught. Site-reading, whole-language were whole sale disasters leading to excessive labeling of school children as learning impaired or disabled etc. Now we have a whole generation, where more of them are economically illiterate leading them to embrace socialism.

Just because some smarter kids can still make it through, doesn’t mean too many are falling through the cracks.

You remind me of parents who insist none of this is happening in their schools, when it is. Ostriches with their heads in the sand.

This is all aside from the student debt crisis which is already in the process of imploding. Using percent of students camouflages the total amount of the student loan market, even though you did not cite any actual percents. It's a dishonest way of calculating the problem.



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The student debt crisis...what % of students have zero debt...and something like $28 grand is average debt....but its a crisis cause somebody borrowed 200g. Maybe the crisis is the number who are walking away from their obligation....maybe, dunno.
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The $1 trillion student loan market begins to implode – Department of Education shows two-year default rates at for-profit colleges up to 15 percent. Student loan debt increasing at a rate of $170,000 per minute.

http://www.mybudget360.com/one-trill...-higher-costs/
That student debt already imploding with some politicians calling for some to be bailed out by the taxpayer—which is the crisis.

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Cost of tuition and fees are too high. Too many professors who do jack shit with assistant and associate professors overseeing too many grad students while they raise prices cause there is no shortage of cash since Obama nationalized the loan program....not a crisis but something no one in education will address.
Where did I say that was the "crisis." I commented earlier on what leads to such higher prices. But the student bubble is bursting and it will burst further. This is acknowledged by others watching it.

The crisis is the amount of money from the taxpayer continually throws at it, no small amount, whereby it doesn’t get better, but costs go higher, more debt overall that cannot be sustained while it's not improving
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But they will face a day when the cost cripples State universities.
I am talking the student debt crisis total amounts which is already imploding, ROI when higher illiteracy, civic illiteracy and economic illiteracy in this country on behalf of our youth making them think socialism is good—and they're college educated too.

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Enough for now, you can go back to practicing your crisis conduct...
Why are you yelling at me, old man? You’re not my parent.
What were you just doing, by reacting to a post as if that was a crisis.

Meanwhile, you think Iran is a crisis when it isn't even a threat, terrorism is a crisis, the border and illegal immigration, the election of Obama was a crisis, anything a Democrat does is a crisis. Oh and as I recall, you thought Drag Queens reading to very young children was a crisis of sorts.
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Old 05-26-2019, 08:19 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RodeoPants2 View Post
Your numbers simply don't reflect this. Unless you're saying $26,260 is 1% more than $25000.



OK, interesting.



But your own model shows that lifetime earnings for college grads exceed non-college starting at 32, and massively exceed them by age 60, even accounting for the 4 years of negative income. Like your own model literally makes the opposite point.

What's more, we have lots of data on lifetime earnings by educational attainment and they all tell the same story, college, graduate, and professional degrees are all outstanding financial investments.

Now, not everyone is capable of getting through college / grad / professional school, but that's a different story.
Most jobs don't require a degree. This probably will still be the case in the future.

Over a decade of data demonstrates earnings data has been and still is skewed by outliers on the higher end where the mean wage is several thousands of dollars higher than the median.
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Old 05-26-2019, 08:31 PM   #250
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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"Once you learn to read you will be forever free." - Frederick Douglas

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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Government schools do not educate. Kids are ruined by the 3rd grade with excessive labeling such as learning disabled and what not when it’s because they don’t teach reading the way it once was taught. Site-reading, whole-language were whole sale disasters leading to excessive labeling of school children as learning impaired or disabled etc.
So why do I say this? How did this come about?
Now here is a curious idea to ponder.
Senator Ted Kennedy’s office released a paper not too long ago claiming that prior to compulsory education the state literacy rate was 98% and after it the figure never again reached above 91% where it stands in 1990. I hope that interests you....

...if we’re going to change what is rapidly becoming a disaster of ignorance, we need to realize that the school institution "schools" very well, but it does not "educate"

John Gatto, former public school educator —Why Schools Don't Educate.

and...
Literacy

Illiteracy: An Incurable Disease or Education Malpractice? written by Robert W. Sweet, Jr., a former professional government education bureaucrat.

Roughly a third of American adults are functionally illiterate, meaning they cannot read better than a third-grader, while government spending to combat illiteracy cost the taxpayers $463 billion between 1966 and 1996. Obviously, throwing money at the problem doesn't work.

Mr. Sweet explains that the problem began with a proposal by Horace Mann in 1837 to stop teaching reading by the phonetic method and to begin teaching reading by the "whole-word" memorization method. Mann's method didn't work, so it was adopted by teachers' colleges all over the country. Mann's method still doesn't work and it is still taught in teachers' colleges all over the country. There seems to be something stubbornly perverse about this.
HonestChieffan has a closed mind and doesn't like hearing the truth if it challenges his world view thinking things are the same in education today as it was back in the 1940's and 50's.
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Old 05-26-2019, 09:28 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Discuss Thrower View Post
Most jobs don't require a degree. This probably will still be the case in the future.

Over a decade of data demonstrates earnings data has been and still is skewed by outliers on the higher end where the mean wage is several thousands of dollars higher than the median.
Neither of those things are related to my core point, which is that when you compare median lifetime incomes, college degrees are an excellent financial investment. I'm aware that mean is skewed by incomes at the top, which is why the data I presented earlier was median lifetime income, not mean.
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