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Old 12-05-2017, 09:47 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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The history of the 2nd amendment.

I know this thread will go over like a lead balloon but I don't care. I've been reading some fascinating constitutional history and listening to a podcast and the 2nd amendment's history is so damn interesting.

We inherit the 2nd amendment, as we do virtually all of our Bill of Rights, from England.

In England, there was a longstanding fear of standing armies. Armies that were in place full time, even during times of peace, professional soldiers. Soldiers that, of course, be potentially used by the king to be wielded against the citizens, ensnaring them in a tyranny.

Matter of fact, the British shooed a military dictator off the throne for that exact reason -- I can't remember his name at this time. In his place, King James assumed the throne and gave British citizens what they wanted: militias. Every able-bodied boy and man would be called into action if needed, with no standing army needing to exist. (Oddly enough, James would eventually establish a national military and outlaw civilians owning guns.)

So that's the culture we have here in the States. The colonists were terribly afraid of a national military being established, due in part to the oppression of the British soldiers. After the Boston massacre, British troops flooded into the colonies and were housed against civilians' will in their home.

Once the revolution was completed, there were no plans to establish a national military during times of peace -- against the objections of Washington and Hamilton, who found volunteer militias to be cowardly and ineffective and wanted a trained, standing military.

But they were in the minority. The vast majority of Americans wanted no standing armies, so James Madison wrote two amendments devised to assuage their fears:

1. The second amendment, which emphasized that militias, not a standing military, were what was supposed to protect Americans, and granted individuals the right to bear arms in militias.

2. The third amendment, which prevented soldiers from being stations in domestic homes during times of peace.

Over time, of course, both of these amendments have been taken from their historical meaning. But the founders literally had no conception that we do today that there is a difference between a civilian owning a gun and a soldier owning a gun, because in the 1780's, civilians were all militia soldiers, should a threat arise.

And a standing military in the 1780's couldn't really threaten a civilian population of similarly-armed civilians. Today, however, the weapons a military can wield far outstrip anything civilians can put together.

We built a military that is bigger and badder than anything American citizens could marshal. There's no real way American citizens could resist an assault from the United States military should the military decide to roll tanks in the streets and nuke every resisting city. Instead, to negate the power of the government and its military, we've shifted to other parts of the Constitution (with mixed, but largely successful, results).

This is true in England, as well. In response to these shifting realities, they noticed over time that the only real danger civilian-owned guns posed was to other civilians, not so much the military anymore. So they've decided to drastically regulate firearms, and today they live in a world where gun violence is minimal, and their democracy is thriving with no real threat of a military dictatorship.

We too live in a country with a thriving democracy and no real threat of a military dictatorship. However we have chosen to flush our civilian society with firearms, and have instead chosen to weather the high rates of gun violence that come with it.
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:16 PM   #136
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What. The. Hell.

God, if it exists, wants you to own a machine gun?
Of course. God obviously wants us to exert free will in our lives.
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:16 PM   #137
Frazod Frazod is offline
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In most cases yes, but as Frazod mentioned, it's best to check the state in question for it's specific regulations. Thankfully, I don't have to worry much about that because every state I want to carry in reciprocates.
All the states bordering Illinois reciprocate too. Thatís very convenient.
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:18 PM   #138
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2nd amendment!!

Rage on man, rage on!

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Old 12-07-2017, 01:21 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by L.A. Chieffan View Post
What. The. Hell.

God, if it exists, wants you to own a machine gun?
yes. to strike down thieves in the night.
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:25 PM   #140
Just Passin' By Just Passin' By is offline
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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
Except that Demore v. Kim concerned deportation, which can't apply to a citizen by definition, so we have no method of comparison.
The USSC clearly disagreed, and stated it. I quoted the appropriate language.

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Originally Posted by Aries Walker View Post
Except that voting rights are guaranteed by the states, not the Constitution. There's nothing in there saying "Only citizens can vote", nor is there anything saying "All citizens may vote", which is why when the country moved away from only landowners voting, they did so state by state and no Amendment was needed or passed. There are Amendments stating that the rights of citizens to vote may not be abridged by ethnicity, sex, poll taxes, and age, but that's not the same thing; a state could theoretically pass a law restricting voting by education or military service, for example, and some states allow convicted criminals to vote while most do not, all without violating the Constitution. It may violate other laws, but not the Constitution.
Again, the USSC disagrees. You're trying to be too fine with your arguments, and they're losing arguments from the start. We need go no further than the requirements of the presidency to show that you were wrong. The rest is just adding examples.
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:26 PM   #141
Bwana Bwana is offline
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Originally Posted by GloryDayz View Post
2nd amendment!!

Rage on man, rage on!

Heh, I'm half tempted to post some of my bump fire videos, but I would probably have the ATF knocking on my door, so I'll pass.
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:26 PM   #142
NinerDoug NinerDoug is offline
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yes. to strike down thieves in the night.
Personally, I think there's nothing like a flame thrower for ideal home defense. (Of course, it does make for high fire insurance premiums.)
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:27 PM   #143
Bwana Bwana is offline
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Originally Posted by L.A. Chieffan View Post
What. The. Hell.

God, if it exists, wants you to own a machine gun?
Of course, thanks for asking.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:09 PM   #144
Aries Walker Aries Walker is offline
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Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
The USSC clearly disagreed, and stated it. I quoted the appropriate language.
Besides the fact that it didn't (I welcome you to point out an instance in which a US citizen faced deportation), I notice you also edited out the rest of that paragraph, which formed a question: If a non-citizen such as Mr. Kim is not afforded the protections of the Constitution, why was he afforded a ton of protections of the Constitution, including due process, during his trial and appeal?

Quote:
Again, the USSC disagrees. You're trying to be too fine with your arguments, and they're losing arguments from the start. We need go no further than the requirements of the presidency to show that you were wrong. The rest is just adding examples.
You're responding to two posts ago. Here I'm talking about voting, and I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone who considers voting an overly specific topic. Anyway, I said from the beginning that the Presidency was established as a deliberate exception. The fact that the authors specified that one birthright requirement implies that it does not exist for anything else, an implication supported by the fact that it does not exist for anything else.

To cast this net a little wider, they did this because, as others have said, they were working from the baseline belief that these rights were granted by God, not man, and the Constitution was just enumerating them. They could not, in all conscience, try to state that God only granted rights to Americans.
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:01 PM   #145
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Heh, I'm half tempted to post some of my bump fire videos, but I would probably have the ATF knocking on my door, so I'll pass.
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Old 12-08-2017, 08:49 AM   #146
stevieray stevieray is offline
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Originally Posted by L.A. Chieffan View Post
What. The. Hell.

God, if it exists, wants you to own a machine gun?
Is this a serious question?
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Old 12-08-2017, 10:18 AM   #147
L.A. Chieffan L.A. Chieffan is online now
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Is this a serious question?
Yes, but I'm not going to get a serious answer from the religious freaks.

Carry on.
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Old 12-08-2017, 10:20 AM   #148
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Yes, but I'm not going to get a serious answer from the religious freaks.

Carry on.
And you wonder why they work against your kind.
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Old 12-08-2017, 10:23 AM   #149
L.A. Chieffan L.A. Chieffan is online now
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And you wonder why they work against your kind.
I'm wondering what this means in English
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Old 12-08-2017, 10:25 AM   #150
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Yes, but I'm not going to get a serious answer from the religious freaks.

Carry on.
Well, if we were honest and said she does, would you just accept it? Because she does.
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