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Old 11-24-2017, 01:21 AM  
oaklandhater oaklandhater is offline
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Bruce Bartlett The Republican Party needs to die

https://www.salon.com/2017/11/23/gop...-needs-to-die/

Bruce Bartlett

CHAUNCEY DEVEGA
11.23.2017ē9:00 AM
American democracy is in crisis, a fact that should be obvious to everyone but that too many people keep ignoring. The president of the United States, Donald Trump, does not believe in or respect basic norms of democratic governance. His words and behavior reveal a deep affinity for fascism.
Over the last few decades there has been an increase in authoritarian values among American voters, and this is especially true for Republicans and other conservatives.
The Citizens United decision defined corporate money as free speech. This undermines American democracy by allowing the most powerful business interests and the richest individuals to overrule and veto the desires of the American people.
The United States is an oligarchy. Recent research shows that the country's elected officials are most responsive to the rich, business interest groups and others with the resources to buy access.

The Republican Party uses gerrymandering and voter suppression to remain in power. It has ceased to believe in any form of compromise or negotiation with Democrats or liberals. This has made consensus politics and a healthy, responsive, functioning government all but impossible.

Public faith in basic social institutions is declining and the American public, broadly speaking, lacks civic literacy. This is a recipe for the American authoritarianism and demagoguery embodied by Trump and the Republican Party.
Journalists, the so-called Fourth Estate, were supposed to sound the alarm about these developments. Instead, the corporate news media has all too often defaulted to a naÔve belief that America's democratic institutions are healthy and strong, thus able to resist any challenge or corruption. Instead of being truth-tellers who balance power by informing the public so the latter can make good decisions, the corporate media empowered Donald Trump and the Republican Party through a slavish devotion to "fairness" and "balance" and a "both sides do it" narrative.
How has the truth been assaulted by Donald Trump and the Republican Party? What role did Trump's incessant lies and his talking points about "fake news" play in his election? How does the myth of the "liberal media" empower the American right? Is there any space for a liberal or centrist alternative to Fox News and the broader right-wing disinformation-propaganda machine? Can the Republican Party in its present form be saved? Does the Trump campaign's alleged collusion with Russia during the 2016 presidential election reflect a larger cultural and political problem?

In an effort to answer these questions I recently spoke with Bruce Bartlett. He was a former White House adviser under President Ronald Reagan and also served under President George H.W. Bush. Bartlett is a regular contributor to the New York Times and has appeared on CNN, MSNBC and other major news networks. He is the author of the new book "The Truth Matters: A Citizen's Guide to Separating Facts From Lies and Stopping Fake News in Its Tracks."
A longer version of this conversation can be heard on my podcast, which is available on Salonís Featured Audio page.

How do you think Donald Trump was able to get elected?
I admit that I was dismayed by the election results. As I thought about how it happened, it just seemed to me that a big part of the story is the media. The media is broken and has adopted certain conventions that I think have normalized Trumpís craziness as well as the craziness of the Republican Party.
Why do you think the mainstream news media was so reluctant to directly confront and expose Trump's lies?

When the mainstream media began to downsize to cope with the loss of revenue from advertising and subscribers, the first thing they did was lay off their most senior reporters. They were able to save a lot of money that way. The problem is that a lot of journalistic training takes place informally in the newsroom, where young reporters learn from the old veterans who have been around for a long time. One of the things that you learn in that way that can't be taught in the university is how to tell when somebody is lying.
There is also ďhe said, she saidĒ journalism, where in order to gain access to a source that can now go around the traditional news media through Twitter and other methods you have to give them whatever they want.
Your source has to be convinced that youíre going to be good to them and get their message out the way they want it to be gotten out, so reporters are now almost forced to be stenographers. Now, obviously the reporters can't just do that, but neither can they inject themselves into the story and say, ďOK, hereís what my source inside the campaign is saying but my reporting and examination of the facts says this is all bullshit, that itís a lie." They can't do that because then they burn their source, the source will never talk to them again if they tell the truth.

Instead, they go to the Clinton campaign and say, ďWhat do you think about this statement that was just given to me by somebody in the Trump campaign?Ē They will say whatever it is they say and the reporter will take that down. ďTrump said this, Clinton said that,Ē and thatís all you get. You donít get the follow-up, you donít get the reporting, the analysis, the fact-checking that would tell you which one is right and which one is wrong.
Conservatives have also created a cudgel with the myth of the "liberal news media." It intimidates the press into being subservient to their agenda in the interest of "fairness" and "balance."

Yes, but I also think that organizations like the New York Times bend over much too far backwards. I donít know why they bother. Conservatives donít read the New York Times; theyíre not going to lose any subscribers by telling the truth.
If you were to pick a moment when the media landscape changed in a way that helped to birth Donald Trump's presidency, what would it be?

I think there are several inflection points. I would go back to 1969 as the beginning, because that was the year that Spiro Agnew gave his famous speech attacking the media. It set the tone for everything conservatives have thought about the media ever since, which is that it is "elitist," opposed to their values, and hopelessly liberal. It was nonsense then and itís certainly nonsense now.

As a consequence, conservatives I think have long drifted away from the mainstream media and sought out alternative media. Even before talk radio, it was very common that conservatives would get much of their news from newsletters and small magazines like Human Events. The fact that conservatives had an alternative media network actually put them in a good position once the mainstream media began to decline.

I think liberals, by contrast, have always been very happy with the mainstream media. I think Democrats really depended on the New York Times to come up with good ideas for policies and hearings and so on. Then came the ending of the Fairness Doctrine, which immediately gave rise to Rush Limbaugh and others of his ilk. I think the next inflection point was of course the Republican takeover of Congress [in 1994] and then the creation of Fox News very shortly thereafter.

Why do you think there has not been a successful counter to right-wing talk radio, and right-wing media more generally, from liberals and centrists?
Well I think the simple answer is that liberals and centrists are perfectly content with the mainstream media. Theyíre very happy with the New York Times and the Washington Post exactly as they are; theyíre happy with ABC, CBS, NBC and NPR. People forget that NPR is essentially liberal talk radio, and thatís one reason why a more explicitly liberal type of talk radio couldnít compete. NPR, like Limbaugh, is very, very good at what it does. I think thatís a big part of the problem.

And of course liberals never had a chip on their shoulder -- they never felt that the media was biased against them and they never felt that their ideas were ridiculed the way Republicans and conservatives have always believed. The soil is simply not conducive to something that would be more explicitly liberal.

Back in the 1960s, the political scientist and historian Richard Hofstadter famously wrote about the power that anti-intellectualism and the "paranoid style," i.e., conspiracy theories, held over American conservatives. Decades later, fringe narratives are now the mainstream in American conservative thought and media. This is extremely dangerous for democracy. How can we find solutions to problems when we can't agree on the nature of empirical reality?

I think youíve touched on one of the most disturbing aspects of the Fox News phenomenon, which is that it normalizes and mainstreams a lot of nutty crackpot conspiracy crap that would otherwise stay in the fever swamps of the far right.
I have an idea, and tell me if you think it is viable. The so-called experts and other talking heads who appear on the TV news should have their qualifications, professional relationships (i.e., who is paying them) and political affiliations listed under their names. This would help the public to understand the agenda at work. Do you think that would actually help our public discourse?

Well, I donít know if it would help, but I do think it is genuinely desirable. There is no reason why that information could not at a minimum be posted online. You reminded me of another moment that changed my thinking about how this all operates. Many years ago when cable news became ubiquitous, I was working for a conservative think tank and I was often invited to be a talking head on various networks.

In the very early years I would usually be on with somebody like myself -- for example, a senior fellow at a liberal think tank. The problem from the point of view of producers was there were no fireworks because we respected each other. We understood what the data was, we understood what the literature was, our differences were not that great and we often agreed with each other. Producers hated this.

I noticed after a few years that I was no longer being put on against a peer but instead people that I had no idea who they were. For example they were a "Democratic consultant" or a "liberal activist" -- very vague terms. I'd never heard of these people and in fact when I would go online to look them up I couldnít find anything. It was as if they literally didnít exist. Another problem was that these people I was up against clearly had gotten media training. All the networks have the same attitude about talking heads, which is that they want somebody whoíll give the rote repetition of the Republican line of the day and someone else whoíll give the rote repetition of the Democratic line of the day. There will be absolutely zero agreement and preferably theyíll yell at each other and scream and weíll have fireworks, which are good for ratings.

With your many years of experience in Washington, with the news media, and now your new book on "fake news," how much does the Russia scandal remind you of Watergate? Or do you think what Robert Mueller uncovers about Donald Trump and his associates will be even worse?
I hope not. But I am prepared for it. Trump is clearly the most incompetent president weíve ever had in our lives. Richard Nixon may well have been the smartest. Nixon was cursed by paranoia, and I think Trump is as well. The question then becomes: Is this incompetence a good thing or a bad thing? Is it more dangerous to have a paranoid incompetent than it was to have a highly intelligent paranoid person as president? I donít think we can tell. When I hear Trump talk, I sometimes have this feeling that he literally had no idea what was going on in his own campaign. He can deny these allegations and be perfectly truthful in his own mind because nobody told him.

Heís a useful idiot.
Thatís one way of describing him. It may be that he is the person who will be the most shocked when the truth finally comes out. He may say, ďOh my God, I had no idea my son-in-law was doing such stupid things.Ē
To watch the national and global calamity that is Trump's presidency in real time is unbelievable. If someone had told me 10 years ago that the country would be in such a crisis I would have said they were crazy. Do you feel the same way, or did you see it coming given how extreme the Republican Party has become over the last few decades?
Well, itís vastly worse than I could possibly have imagined. I had this naÔve idea that Trump had been a successful businessman because he had competent staff. I just assumed that Trump's company had an army of lawyers and vice presidents with MBAs from Harvard Business School who went around like the guy behind the elephant in the parade with a broom and a shovel cleaning up his messes and fixing the contracts and getting the deals done properly that their boss was too incompetent to do himself. I just assumed that once he got into the White House weíd find these people would just come in and run things. I was shocked that that wasnít the case. There was nobody.

If someone were to ask you why Trumpís voters backed him, how would you answer?
Thatís the $64,000 question. Certainly a big part of it was voter fatigue. As far as the Democrats are concerned it has been true since at least the post-World War II era that each party gets eight years -- and only eight years. There is only one exception to that rule and it was George H.W. Bush. It was probably in the cards that whoever got the Republican nomination was in a much better position to win than was generally assumed. Of course, Hillary Clinton turned out to be a historically poor candidate not just in a general way but also technically. From what Iíve read about her campaign, Hillary didnít do statewide polling in the last couple of weeks before the election and really had no idea what was going on in critical battleground states.

The Comey letter [to Congress in late October] was horribly timed of course. I think thereís been this idea in American politics for a very long time that outsiders have some kind of special gift as compared to professional politicians. Moreover, Republicans just love the idea of bringing in a businessman to run the government. What they donít realize is what you end up with is somebody who has absolutely no training for the job. The most successful presidents in recent memory were men with massive amounts of skill, namely [Lyndon B.] Johnson and Nixon. They had been in government their whole lives.
How did todayís Republican Party, in your estimation, become the way it is? Can it be saved?
The Republican Party needs to die. Itís already a zombie. Itís brain dead.
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Old 11-25-2017, 09:38 PM   #76
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Just to be clear, your party has no answers to anything.

The liberal political game of spending will eventually come to a screeching halt and your party will be even more clueless than it is now.
As will the republican game of spending, let alone deficit spending on the very people completely disinterested to help.
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:52 AM   #77
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And I thought OH was the idiot in this thread....
You are missing the point, while it's waving in your face. Now is not the time for "feel-good". OP Knows It.

In our country, at this time, it is obvious that things are going to hell. You cannot pretend otherwise. Yeah--a few positives to leaven the bread, but mostly we should be screaming out loud at what is being done to us.

ONE MORE TIME !

We have a financial problem in America, and SOME seem to think taking away from those with the LEAST is the answer, while some of us tend to think we would do better taking SOME from those with the MOST.

LOGIC has a lot to do with it. When someone needs something, they don't generally go to the EMPTY warehouse, but rather the warehouse that has what is needed in it.

I'm still not clear on why working people pay 30% on the earnings made with toil and labor, while the elite pay 15% on money made by money, while they sit idle sipping a cool drink at a golf course. Logic tells me it works the other way around, with less tax paid on wages paid for the sweat of your brow, and that made without effort taxed more heavily.

The nation is NOT jealous of the wealthy.. We are not vindictive or think we're entitled.. all we want is for the rich to contribute their fair share instead of using tactics, that only the wealthy can afford, to shun their responsibilities.
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:57 AM   #78
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You are missing the point, while it's waving in your face. Now is not the time for "feel-good". OP Knows It.

In our country, at this time, it is obvious that things are going to hell. You cannot pretend otherwise. Yeah--a few positives to leaven the bread, but mostly we should be screaming out loud at what is being done to us.

ONE MORE TIME !

We have a financial problem in America, and SOME seem to think taking away from those with the LEAST is the answer, while some of us tend to think we would do better taking SOME from those with the MOST.

LOGIC has a lot to do with it. When someone needs something, they don't generally go to the EMPTY warehouse, but rather the warehouse that has what is needed in it.

I'm still not clear on why working people pay 30% on the earnings made with toil and labor, while the elite pay 15% on money made by money, while they sit idle sipping a cool drink at a golf course. Logic tells me it works the other way around, with less tax paid on wages paid for the sweat of your brow, and that made without effort taxed more heavily.

The nation is NOT jealous of the wealthy.. We are not vindictive or think we're entitled.. all we want is for the rich to contribute their fair share instead of using tactics, that only the wealthy can afford, to shun their responsibilities.

What's going to hell? The decreased illegal immigration? The increased job scene? Increasing wages? Increasing stock market? Lower taxes? The fall of ISIS?

Let me know when I hit the spot....
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So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 11-26-2017, 09:29 AM   #79
Pueblo Chieftan Pueblo Chieftan is offline
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And suddenly liberals care about the deficit. Amazing how the party out of power always cares about the things they don't care about when they are in power......
Fair's Fair. How about "Lock him up"?

Come on.. you know the basic chant by now..Lock him up. Lock him up.......what? it doesn't count when they do it? The credo is "do as I say, not as I do." It's the common credo for dictators, authoritarians, and bigotry-driven nationalists. detention isn't the answer. What he did was treason.

And Enough with the Ayn Randying . You'll live longer.
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Old 11-26-2017, 09:57 AM   #80
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What's going to hell? The decreased illegal immigration? The increased job scene? Increasing wages? Increasing stock market? Lower taxes? The fall of ISIS?

Let me know when I hit the spot....
Small towns are the main reason Trump got elected. Economically, what has he done long term for them?

His solution has been increasing power of corporations and massive expansion of government. He is accelerating the economic destruction of small towns. It's hard to applaud the "increased jobs" when you look at manufacturing, retail, and transportation and realize we're staring down the barrel of a gun.
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Old 11-26-2017, 10:40 AM   #81
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As will the republican game of spending, let alone deficit spending on the very people completely disinterested to help.
Absolutely correct. The republicans are no better. It's like there are no adults on the national elected stage.

The day of reckoning is coming at some point.
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Old 11-26-2017, 11:42 AM   #82
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Small towns are the main reason Trump got elected. Economically, what has he done long term for them?
He hasn't even been in office for a whole year yet, has met with opposition within his own party over his ideas even. It's not really the presidents role to even do this and much of that is for the states.

I don't understand when you claimed to lean libertarian, how a single man, such as a president, has to do with doing something economically specifically for small towns? You an economic central planner now? I call this the Moses syndrome.

His enforcement of illegal immigration laws is something that he's doing for them, including any relationship to jobs which is part of the economy. His seeking relief from oppressive ACA regulations, his tax reform ideas and his ideas for more jobs inside the country.

Quote:
His solution has been increasing power of corporations and massive expansion of government. He is accelerating the economic destruction of small towns. It's hard to applaud the "increased jobs" when you look at manufacturing, retail, and transportation and realize we're staring down the barrel of a gun.
Yet you call for him to be involved in the economics of small towns in America. You were opposed to him on trade, which free-trade pacts have done on all the above items you cited. I think you have a touch of TDS yourself.

If he delivers on his promise to leave Afghanistan, stop elective wars—then that benefits everyone including small towns. Those things are running into trillions of dollars and contribute to our bankrupt status too. But Trump has been decapitated from within. Some of which is his own fault, because of the personnel recommendations he accepted from people who never stood or liked what Trump campaigned on.
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Old 11-26-2017, 11:47 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
Small towns are the main reason Trump got elected. Economically, what has he done long term for them?

His solution has been increasing power of corporations and massive expansion of government. He is accelerating the economic destruction of small towns. It's hard to applaud the "increased jobs" when you look at manufacturing, retail, and transportation and realize we're staring down the barrel of a gun.
I've asked you this question about a zillion times, but I will try once more...

Where do you get this?

Of course, there are many small factors that played into his win, but the big picture is he swung the rust belt. That's big AND small towns. The rust belt put Trump in office.

Small town America always votes Republican, why was this election any different? I'm not trying to be an azz, but I can't remember you telling me where you came up with your opinion.
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Few things Democrats profess to love more than a failed Republican.

From Ford and Papa Bush down through Dole and Kemp, McCain and Romney, they universally exclaim 'why can't more be like THEM!!'
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Old 11-26-2017, 01:05 PM   #84
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I've asked you this question about a zillion times, but I will try once more...

Where do you get this?

Of course, there are many small factors that played into his win, but the big picture is he swung the rust belt. That's big AND small towns. The rust belt put Trump in office.

Small town America always votes Republican, why was this election any different? I'm not trying to be an azz, but I can't remember you telling me where you came up with your opinion.
It's not like the demos in urban cores changed. Rust belt, small towns. Whatever you want to call it. Evangelists and defense and immigration have always been core issues. What changed was populism primarily driven by industrialists. The urban cores of the rust belt haven't changed much. It's the small towns and suburbs in the rust belt which behave more like large small towns.
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Old 11-26-2017, 03:35 PM   #85
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Both parties need to die.

America can only live if both die, since both are completely treasonous worthless kleptocratic hives of Zionism.
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Old 11-26-2017, 03:41 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
It's not like the demos in urban cores changed. Rust belt, small towns. Whatever you want to call it. Evangelists and defense and immigration have always been core issues. What changed was populism primarily driven by industrialists. The urban cores of the rust belt haven't changed much. It's the small towns and suburbs in the rust belt which behave more like large small towns.
I think the issue most people are having with GOP Voters right now is where the hell is the bottom Trump and the GOP does more and more to embarrass the nation and GOP voters remain deadfeast with their party.


Look at the Roy moore situation Trump is Flat out lying about Doug jones and none of it matters he went to bat for a sexual abuser.
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oaklandhater 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellioaklandhater 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellioaklandhater 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellioaklandhater 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellioaklandhater 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellioaklandhater 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellioaklandhater 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellioaklandhater 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellioaklandhater 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellioaklandhater 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitellioaklandhater 's adopt a chief was Sabby Piscitelli
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Old 11-26-2017, 03:42 PM   #87
LaDexter LaDexter is offline
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And "Oaklandhater" was right there, peeping through the window, when that "happened."
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Old 11-26-2017, 04:02 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oaklandhater View Post
I think the issue most people are having with GOP Voters right now is where the hell is the bottom Trump and the GOP does more and more to embarrass the nation and GOP voters remain deadfeast with their party.


Look at the Roy moore situation Trump is Flat out lying about Doug jones and none of it matters he went to bat for a sexual abuser.
You all went to bat for The Clintons, flat out lying about their opponents
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Prison Bitch is obviously part of the inner Circle.Prison Bitch is obviously part of the inner Circle.Prison Bitch is obviously part of the inner Circle.Prison Bitch is obviously part of the inner Circle.Prison Bitch is obviously part of the inner Circle.Prison Bitch is obviously part of the inner Circle.Prison Bitch is obviously part of the inner Circle.Prison Bitch is obviously part of the inner Circle.Prison Bitch is obviously part of the inner Circle.Prison Bitch is obviously part of the inner Circle.Prison Bitch is obviously part of the inner Circle.
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Old 11-26-2017, 04:13 PM   #89
Pueblo Chieftan Pueblo Chieftan is offline
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They will be celebrated for saving this country from the 8 years of destruction that was the Obama era. Which would have been 12 had Hilary, aka pantsuit Obama, won the presidency.

You should get down on your knees and thank him every night for that.
Barack Obama is a conservative. Richard Nixon was literally further to the left than Obama had been. People like Donald J. are simply mentally ill sociopaths who worship Ayn Rand, who herself worshiped a convicted child killer and pedophile. Some people are just dyed in the wool evil.

In fact, i would substitute the term radicals for conservatives. These bozos are not conservatives by any stretch of the imagination. Dwight Eisenhower was a conservative. I might not agree with true conservatives but I can argue with them and find some merit in some of their views. You can't argue with crazy and these ideologues are absolutely certifiable.

They are regressives, doing everything in their power to return us to the Robber Baron era, (Turn us back? We ARE in the robber baron era ) otherwise known as the Gilded Age.

If we don't create a new Progressive Era to stop them, they will make us a huge third world nation. One sign is that our total state, federal, and local taxes as a percent of GNP are on a level with Turkey and Chile, and dropping. Visit Turkey, extrapolate downward, and see our future.
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Pueblo Chieftan < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.Pueblo Chieftan < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.Pueblo Chieftan < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.Pueblo Chieftan < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.Pueblo Chieftan < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.Pueblo Chieftan < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.Pueblo Chieftan < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.Pueblo Chieftan < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.Pueblo Chieftan < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.Pueblo Chieftan < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.Pueblo Chieftan < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.
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Old 11-26-2017, 04:16 PM   #90
LaDexter LaDexter is offline
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Barack Obama was a bigot, a liar, a kleptocrat, and a traitor.

He was nothing in the ballpark of the word "conservative."
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LaDexter < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.LaDexter < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.LaDexter < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.LaDexter < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.LaDexter < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.LaDexter < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.LaDexter < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.LaDexter < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.LaDexter < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.LaDexter < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.LaDexter < Tried to steal Andy's chili fries.
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