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Old 11-14-2017, 01:24 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Alright, gun rights folks. You say the problem is mental health.

For years on this forum and pretty much anywhere I discuss gun control with 2nd amendment absolutists like many on this forum, I argue that we need gun control in various forms.

In addition to some of the more radical notions that "2nd amendment rights" are absolute, I also frequently hear that America actually has a mental health problem, not a gun problem.

This is an argument that many of you have aired.

So, I am asking for what policies you want to be seen to deal with mental illness.

Here we have a kid losing his shit on social media, and by all accounts is probably at-risk for doing something horrendous at some point (NSFW):



Feel free to ignore the text that frames the video by Occupy Democrats, as it's worthless. Focus on my question.

Now, obviously losing your shit in front of a camera does not mean you will shoot up a crowd of people, but I think if we're all putting together a profile of someone who could eventually do that, he fits the profile. (Also, imagine if this guy were black or Muslim.)

What is it, exactly, that the gun enthusiasts in this forum who believe America's problem is mental health, suggest that we do with this individual?

C'mon, folks. You told me the problem is mental health policy. Explain to me how you fix it to address people who fly off the handle and say crazy, violent shit like this.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:06 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
And this video is the perfect example -- if there is a poster child for someone who could go on and shoot at a crowd, it's this kid. But the conservatives who believe guns rights are sacrosanct have literally no suggestions as to what can be done about him. Force him to seek therapy? Incarcerate him until we're comfortable putting him back in society? Publicly subsidize his mental healthcare if his family can't afford it?
A) I don't believe gun rights are sacrosanct. I do believe there are clear and obvious methods to go about taking them away from people, including law abiding citizens. By all means, get that Constitutional Convention fired up and set about getting 3/4 of the state to ratify. I have no problem at all with changes to gun rights in this country - just follow the rules and see if you can get it done. Recognize that I'll be donating my time and money to oppose it, but the avenues towards significant and meaningful change exist; by all means - utilize them.

B) You're asking a question that true conservatives will advise you they don't even HAVE to answer - because they don't. The answer for a conservative is that mental health isn't the government's damn problem anyway and there isn't a need to come up with a policy answer for every broken person in this country.

What they CAN do, and what they are oft willing to do, is minimize the amount of damage those broken people are able to cause. It isn't the job of the government to fix broken souls or to ensure they don't get that way. But if there are steps that can be taken to keep them from hurting innocent people that do not infringe on the rights of others, very few people have a problem with that.

Then again, none of this is news to you. It's just the game you enjoy playing for some odd reason.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:06 PM   #47
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Seriously, I filled out a form that was immediately sent to the government and came back approved before I was allowed to complete the purchase of Every. Single. ****ing. Gun. I've ever purchased. Number of people murdered with said guns? Zero. So what the hell does this have to do with me?

****ing whining liberal twats. There's going to be a certain amount of batshit crazy people out there who do batshit crazy things. Welcome to earth. But none of them have dick to do with my constitutional rights.

Perhaps the jerkoff in the video will wig out and run down a bunch of people with a combine. Then Deflectshun can start a thread about banning farm equipment.
Same here.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:09 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Dealing with mental illness isn't the same as "curing" it. There are forms of "cures" for mental illness, but what the goal of mental healthcare is, of course, is to help a person manage their psychological hangups in healthy and productive ways, rather than in unhealthy and destructive ways.

In the worst cases, pairing destructive psychological issues with guns is a recipe for disaster, as we've seen.

Again, I think the policy you support is a really solid idea, though I haven't seen it before. But it doesn't make the person any psychologically healthier, it just restricts his access to guns.

Which is understandable, and sensible.

My OP is specifically attuned to gun rights activists on this forum who believe that every time someone like myself (and, I guess, you) call for gun control, they're missing the real problem -- "the problem isn't guns, it's mental illness, so let's deal with that instead."

Doesn't sound like you're one of those folks, though.
Wait - I've got it. I'll give you the perfectly sane, reasonable, responsible, liberal approved answer.

You know what I want? "Common Sense" mental health reform.

See how easy that is?
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:09 PM   #49
IowaHawkeyeChief IowaHawkeyeChief is offline
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No one needs a military style weapon for home defense or hunting.
F'in Cosmo...

The first amendment isn't about being able to have plays or shows of your choice, just as the 2nd amendment isn't about home defense are hunting.

They are constitutional rights that were written to check the powers of the Federal government. If they ever start infringing on my rights, I do not want to die holding a .410 shotgun and a .22 rifle.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:10 PM   #50
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
A) I don't believe gun rights are sacrosanct. I do believe there are clear and obvious methods to go about taking them away from people, including law abiding citizens. By all means, get that Constitutional Convention fired up and set about getting 3/4 of the state to ratify. I have no problem at all with changes to gun rights in this country - just follow the rules and see if you can get it done.
That's all fair.

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Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
B) You're asking a question that true conservatives will advise you they don't even HAVE to answer - because they don't. The answer for a conservative is that mental health isn't the government's damn problem anyway and there isn't a need to come up with a policy answer for every broken person in this country.

What they CAN do, and what they are oft willing to do, is minimize the amount of damage those broken people are able to cause. It isn't the job of the government to fix broken souls or to ensure they don't get that way. But if there are steps that can be taken to keep them from hurting innocent people that do not infringe on the rights of others, very few people have a problem with that.
I can't help but feel you've slumbered through approximately every gun debate we've had on this forum.

While most gun owners almost certainly agree with you here, the NRA does not, and the loudest voices in the gun rights movement do not. The scarecrow you're constructing in their place is arguing that guns should totally be regulated fairly and that the government can only do so much about mental health.

What many of them are actually arguing is much different. What they're arguing is that guns are just a tool that's constitutionally gifted to us with limited reservation, and that the gun violence and mass shootings we experience are caused by mental health, and that's what we need to address (in some mysterious way), not guns.

That's a far less reasonable position than the one you're taking. I should know, I've spent a decade arguing with them.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:12 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
A) I don't believe gun rights are sacrosanct. I do believe there are clear and obvious methods to go about taking them away from people, including law abiding citizens. By all means, get that Constitutional Convention fired up and set about getting 3/4 of the state to ratify. I have no problem at all with changes to gun rights in this country - just follow the rules and see if you can get it done.
That's a shame you think like that. It's hardly conservative as it shows a lack of understanding of the real reason for the 2nd Amendment. We should all be armed as a citizen militia. Let's see how many mass shootings happen then. If some still do, the police still can't get there in time to stop it.

No Constitutional Convention either. It will turn into a runaway convention as it did the first time, where more state power is taken with more liberty lost.

Quote:
B) You're asking a question that true conservatives will advise you they don't even HAVE to answer - because they don't. The answer for a conservative is that mental health isn't the government's damn problem anyway and there isn't a need to come up with a policy answer for every broken person in this country.
Oh but we do. True conservatives. I put mine in, about psychotropic prescriptions drugs. I am not about to relinquish more liberty for security.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:12 PM   #52
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
Wait - I've got it. I'll give you the perfectly sane, reasonable, responsible, liberal approved answer.

You know what I want? "Common Sense" mental health reform.

See how easy that is?


Indeed.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:13 PM   #53
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
That's all fair.
Thank gawd, that's just your opinion. If you think it's fair, then it's likely not conservative, who support the Constitution as written and originally intended.
At least,limited govt conservatives—not big govt conservatives which do exist.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:19 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
That's a shame you think like that. It's hardly conservative as it shows a lack of understanding of the real reason for the 2nd Amendment. We should all be armed as a citizen militia. Let's see how many mass shootings happen then. If some still do, the police still can't get there in time to stop it.

No Constitutional Convention either. It will turn into a runaway convention as it did the first time, where more state power is taken with more liberty lost.
I believe in the rule of law. Let them try to make their changes.

I will be backing the other side, but I have no problem with efforts to attempt to change laws to align with the will of the people when they're done within the constraints of our Constitutional system. If they're able to get 2/3 of the Senate to sign off on an Amendment and 3/4 of the states to ratify same - well then clearly the country wants to go in a different direction. So be it.

You fellas want confiscation? Alright - take your best shot. I am not one to begrudge people for trying to change the system to fit the worldview they feel is best. Nor should they be all that surprised when I (and the majority of the country) loudly oppose them.

It's not terribly complicated, really.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:21 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Well, then I guess your post isn't relevant to my thread. So we're even?
My post is clearly relevant to your thread. It is, in face, a comment specifically on the thread, and your actions within it, and how that reflects your general posting. Is this the way you're going to try to avoid discussing your dishonest posting? You're going to be dishonest, again?

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Old 11-14-2017, 03:22 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
While this probably makes you feel better, the American government is not going to exterminate people who use violent rhetoric.

So, we have to deal with them.
IF you're going to stay on task with the leftist norm, you need to try to understand the plight of this youth who is obviously struggling. It seems he must be reaching out for help. In his video, it appears he is talking to ONE person, possibly an African American who is "messing with him". Maybe he's lashing out due to bullying.

You obviously have no feeeeeeelings.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:22 PM   #57
Scooter Libby Scooter Libby is offline
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Most gun related incidents are suicides so yes it's a mental health issue. Secondly most murders are committed in Urban areas. That's a cultural/economic issue.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:23 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
I believe in the rule of law. Let them try to make their changes.

I will be backing the other side, but I have no problem with efforts to attempt to change laws to align with the will of the people when they're done within the constraints of our Constitutional system. If they're able to get 2/3 of the Senate to sign off on an Amendment and 3/4 of the states to ratify same - well then clearly the country wants to go in a different direction. So be it.

You fellas want confiscation? Alright - take your best shot. I am not one to begrudge people for trying to change the system to fit the worldview they feel is best. Nor should they be all that surprised when I (and the majority of the country) loudly oppose them.

It's not terribly complicated, really.
yup, always one generation away.


...exactly why we warned about 'if you can keep it' (liberty)
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:24 PM   #59
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
My post is clearly relevant to your thread.
Nah, the OP is posing a quandry to gun rights activists here to examine their alleged beliefs.

You're just saying I'm an idiot.

You're right, of course, but that's a whole 'nother topic entirely. Start your own thread about my stupidity and I'll be the first to post in it.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:25 PM   #60
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Most gun related incidents are suicides so yes it's a mental health issue.
No.

It's just the method.
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