Game of Thrones (spoiler-free zone)

[keg in kc]

A few have suggested it, might as well test the waters. The idea is to give people who haven't read the books a safe place to talk about the show.

A few quick ground rules:

• No Spoilers!!!!! for upcoming episodes.
• Larger Song of Ice and Fire discussion should be limited to the other thread although I think a tiny bit of book delving to fill in holes should be okay (example of this would be talking about Catelyn and her treatment of the wolves in the novel, which was alluded to on TV but never really made clear...)
• Everything that happened that week is fair game once an episode airs. So if you don't watch on Sunday night, I'd stay outta here until you do...

[MMXcalibur]

Spoiler!

[BigRichard]

Originally Posted by KCtotheSB

Spoiler!

.

Spoiler!

Spoiler!

[mr. tegu]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

That's cool, so there must have been some sort of evidence in the show. Do you remember what it was?

Spoiler!

In the tombs with Sansa recently they were talking about how her aunt actually really loved the Targaryean guy and that it wasn't that she was forced into being with him. I think that was kind of the first possible hint at itin that there is more to yet be revealed. Also, Ned was always an honorable person, so it always seemed odd that he would have a child with another woman. Really from there it is probably just pure speculation but there may be some other clues I am not recalling at the moment that helped frame that thought.

[Bowser]

There was that scene in the show where Baelish and Sansa were in the Winterfell crypts, and she made mention of how her Aunt Lyanna had been kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar Targaryan. While Sansa is remembering the story she is being told and staring intently at Lyanna's statue, Littlefinger looks at Sansa at gives her a sly smile and a smirk.

[mdchiefsfan]

Originally Posted by Bowser

There was that scene in the show where Baelish and Sansa were in the Winterfell crypts, and she made mention of how her Aunt Lyanna had been kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar Targaryan. While Sansa is remembering the story she is being told and staring intently at Lyanna's statue, Littlefinger looks at Sansa at gives her a sly smile and a smirk.

Yea. That was a huge nod to the book readers.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

So... this brings up an interesting question about spoilers. There are a lot of theories out there that depend on evidence in the books, but they have not been explicitly spelled out in either the books or the show. However, a show watcher would not have any idea about such a theory, because the hints weren't present in the show at all.

I picked up on the Rhaegar/Lyanna thing just by merely watching the show. The hints have been there over the seasons (and were especially obvious this season).

In any case...god, I hope Melisandre can resurrect Jon like Thoros did for Beric Dondarrion all those times.

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Spoiler!

They both cheated, so they had that going for both of them. But one of them birthed false heirs, which led to murder of Jon Arryn, then murder of the king, the beheading of Ned, the insanity of Joffrey, and into the morass that is A Song of Fire and Ice.

Not to forgive Robert, but he didn't cause all that, except to the extent that his lack of ability to be affectionate toward Cercei perhaps drove her back into Jaime's arms.

Spoiler!

Actually, Jon Arryn was murdered by Lysa at Littlefinger's direction, and he also had her falsely accuse the Lannisters, all of which started the whole mess between the Starks and Lannisters. Littlefinger was the ultimate evil mastermind behind it all as revealed by Lysa in the books and in the show right before Littlefinger kills Lysa.

[GloucesterChief]

I also don't think that Littlefinger wanted to push the Seven Kingdoms into civil war.

I believe that he negotiated for Ned to take the black but Joffery being a little psychopath with no political instincts whatsoever decided to execute him.

You could argue that Littlefinger first wanted to get at the people that wronged him ie Jon Arryn, Ned, and Robert.

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by KC_Connection

I picked up on the Rhaegar/Lyanna thing just by merely watching the show. The hints have been there over the seasons (and were especially obvious this season).

In any case...god, I hope Melisandre can resurrect Jon like Thoros did for Beric Dondarrion all those times.

In that one recent episode where Littlefinger and Sansa discuss Lyanna in the crypts, the show pretty much laid it all out there in hints. Their crypt discussion was the most obvious part when Littlefinger's expression makes it pretty clear he didn't think Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. But in that one episode, you also had:

- Stannis' wife says that Jon is some upjumped bastard of a tavern wench, and Stannis points out "That wasn't Ned's way". Meant to make people wonder how honorable NEd could have fathered a bastard. Totally out of character for Ned.

- Melisandre tries to seduce Jon telling him she feels power running through him and that he has the power to cast shadows. Given those statements, it made it seem like Jon has king's blood in him.

- Barristan tells Dany about what a good guy Rhaegar was and how he didn't like to fight and preferred to sing, all of which makes us think it unlikely he was a kidnapper and raper.

So yes, the show went out of its way in that episode to give hints that Jon might be Lyanna and Rhaegar's son.

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by GloucesterChief

I also don't think that Littlefinger wanted to push the Seven Kingdoms into civil war.

I believe that he negotiated for Ned to take the black but Joffery being a little psychopath with no political instincts whatsoever decided to execute him.

You could argue that Littlefinger first wanted to get at the people that wronged him ie Jon Arryn, Ned, and Robert.

Chaos is a ladder. Littlefinger absolutely wanted to start a war. After having Lysa kill Jon Arryn and blame the Lannisters, Littlefinger then falsely accused Tyrion of owning the knife used on Bran, so Catelyn captures Tyrion and sets off the war. Plus Littlefinger betrayed Ned resulting in him getting killed and insuring a war.

And look where it has gotten him. He brokers Tyrell-Lannister alliance (which would not have been needed if not for the war) and gets made Lord of Harrenhall as a result. That status allows him to finally marry Lysa and then he kills her so now he is Lord Protector of the Vale and Lord of Harrenhall. On the show, he tells Cersei he will take back Winterfell with the Vale troops if she makes him Warden of the North. And so on. Littlefinger thrives on chaos, and that is exactly what he wanted to create.

[KCUnited]

Not necessarily hinting at who she was, but before he left for the Watch, Ned told Jon that they'd get together someday and he'd tell him about his mother. Seemed rather foreshadowish at the time.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Spoiler!

Actually, Jon Arryn was murdered by Lysa at Littlefinger's direction, and he also had her falsely accuse the Lannisters, all of which started the whole mess between the Starks and Lannisters. Littlefinger was the ultimate evil mastermind behind it all as revealed by Lysa in the books and in the show right before Littlefinger kills Lysa.

You are completely correct. I had forgotten!

[Fire Me Boy!]

[mdchiefsfan]

Originally Posted by Fire Me Boy!

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Chaos is a ladder. Littlefinger absolutely wanted to start a war. After having Lysa kill Jon Arryn and blame the Lannisters, Littlefinger then falsely accused Tyrion of owning the knife used on Bran, so Catelyn captures Tyrion and sets off the war. Plus Littlefinger betrayed Ned resulting in him getting killed and insuring a war.

And look where it has gotten him. He brokers Tyrell-Lannister alliance (which would not have been needed if not for the war) and gets made Lord of Harrenhall as a result. That status allows him to finally marry Lysa and then he kills her so now he is Lord Protector of the Vale and Lord of Harrenhall. On the show, he tells Cersei he will take back Winterfell with the Vale troops if she makes him Warden of the North. And so on. Littlefinger thrives on chaos, and that is exactly what he wanted to create.

Didn't he say in one of his monologues that when things stay the same power doesn't change or something? When shot hits the fan there are opportunities.