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Old 12-05-2017, 02:51 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Trump to name all of Jerusalem the capital of Israel.

Do we have anybody on this board that has been claiming for a decade that Israel and America actually never wanted to establish a two-state solution, and instead were paying it the silliest lip service possible while greater entrenching Israel as an apartheid state and precluding the existence of any kind of meaningful Palestine?

Anybody?

Let me see if I can think of one.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/05/w...rump-move.html

U.S. to Recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s Capital, Trump Says, Alarming Middle East Leaders
By MARK LANDLER and DAVID M. HALBFINGER
DEC. 5, 2017

President Trump told Israeli and Arab leaders on Tuesday that he plans to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, a symbolically fraught move that would upend decades of American policy and upset efforts to broker peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

Mr. Trump is expected to announce his decision on Wednesday, two days after the expiration of a deadline for him to decide whether to keep the American Embassy in Tel Aviv.

Palestinian officials said Mr. Trump told the president of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, that the United States would move the embassy to Jerusalem. Jordan said the president gave a similar message to King Abdullah II.

American officials, however, said such a move could not occur immediately for logistical reasons, given the lack of facilities to house the embassy staff. As a result, Mr. Trump is expected to sign a national security waiver that would authorize the administration to keep it in Tel Aviv for an additional six months.

Still, Mr. Trump’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital — and to set in motion an embassy move — is his riskiest foray yet into the thicket of Middle East diplomacy. Arab and European leaders warn that it could derail any peace initiative and even ignite fresh violence in the region.

King Abdullah II strongly cautioned against the move, “stressing that Jerusalem is the key to achieving peace and stability in the region and the world,” according to a statement from the royal palace in Amman.

“King Abdullah stressed that the adoption of this resolution will have serious implications for security and stability in the Middle East, and will undermine the efforts of the American administration to resume the peace process and fuel the feelings of Muslims and Christians,” the statement said.

Few details of the conversation between Mr. Trump and Mr. Abbas were released, but a P.L.O. spokesman said that the call had given shape to the worst fears of Palestinians — that the United States would break with decades of practice and longstanding international consensus by recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

The Palestinians hope to make East Jerusalem the capital of a Palestinian state, and the city is of great religious significance to Jews, Christians and Muslims.

“It’s very serious,” said the spokesman, Xavier Abu Eid. “Things look very bad.”

The Palestinian news agency, WAFA, quoted Mr. Abbas’s spokesman, Nabil Abu Rudeineh, as saying that Mr. Abbas will continue his contacts with world leaders to prevent such “unacceptable action.”

King Abdullah also spoke with Mr. Abbas, assuring him of Jordan’s support for the Palestinians “in preserving their historic rights in Jerusalem and the need to work together to confront the consequences of this decision,” it said.

Mr. Trump, officials said, assured Mr. Abbas that the administration would protect Palestinian interests in any peace negotiation with Israel. He also invited the Palestinian leader to visit him in Washington for further consultations.

In his phone calls with Arab leaders, Mr. Trump is making the case that settling the question of the American Embassy could actually hasten the peace process by removing a thorny political issue that recurs every six months.

But that is primarily a political problem for Mr. Trump, who promised during the 2016 campaign to move the embassy. His pledge was extremely popular with evangelicals and pro-Israel backers, including the casino magnate Sheldon Adelson. They expressed frustration when Mr. Trump signed the waiver in June, keeping the embassy in Tel Aviv.

Middle East experts said the administration’s argument that it could not move the embassy immediately made little sense, since all that is required is to place a sign on the existing American consulate, declaring it the embassy.

For Arab leaders, word that the United States would formally recognize Jerusalem as the capital had already caused great consternation. The symbolic statement of the embassy’s change of address, many officials warned, was actually less damaging to the peace process than changing United States policy on Jerusalem’s status.

For the United States to move the embassy would break with international consensus that the status of Jerusalem remains unsettled.

Though Israel houses its parliament, president, prime minister and most ministries in Jerusalem, and Israelis overwhelmingly want the world to acknowledge the Holy City as their seat of government, the international community recognizes de facto Israeli sovereignty only in West Jerusalem.

East Jerusalem was captured by Israeli forces during the Arab-Israeli war of 1967. And the permanent status of Jerusalem as a whole, East and West, was postponed under the Oslo Accords, although Israel extended Jerusalem’s municipal borders to encompass the predominantly Arab eastern neighborhoods.
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:28 PM   #16
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:29 PM   #17
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Found this great piece on Bloomberg on the issue.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...s-embassy-move

Israel Needs Its Arab Friends More Than U.S. Embassy Move
The big risk of relocating in Jerusalem isn't that it will anger the Palestinians, but that it will anger the Saudis.
by Eli Lake
December 21, 2016, 4:00 AM CST

For the last eight years the American president has approached the Jewish state the way a do-gooder deals with an alcoholic friend. You know the pose: Because we care so much about your long-term survival, we want to help you end your addiction to apartment construction in East Jerusalem.

To put it mildly, Donald Trump has a different perspective. It's not just that he has nominated his bankruptcy lawyer David Friedman, an enthusiast of greater Israel, to be his ambassador there. Nor is it the elimination of language about a "two state solution" in the Republican Party's platform for 2016. It's that the incoming president's administration is promising to move the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem after the election.

It's been the other way since the 1980s. Usually presidents promise to move the embassy in the campaign and break that promise while in office. Trump looks like he is going to keep his word. As Friedman said in a statement last week, he looks forward to conducting his official diplomatic business "from the U.S. embassy in Israel’s eternal capital, Jerusalem."

For many Trump supporters this is good news. Dayenu, as some might say. Congress has been on record since the 1990s endorsing a U.S. embassy in Jerusalem. Moving the embassy would help discredit those who seek to delegitimize Israel. This was Israeli ambassador Ron Dermer's argument Tuesday evening at an embassy Hannukah reception.

With all due respect to Ambassador Dermer, this is risky business. Jonathan Schanzer, the vice president for research at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies told me Tuesday before the ambassador's remarks: "I have heard from Israelis that any sudden moves on the U.S. position on Jerusalem would potentially precipitate a third intifada, disrupt the strategic ties between Jordan and Israel and cause a break in the quiet diplomacy with Saudi Arabia."

Dan Arbell, who served as Israel's deputy chief of mission in Washington from 2009 to 2012, also worries about the embassy move. He told me it risked making Israel's quiet relationships in the region more prickly. "I wouldn't go as far as saying it will be an end to the Jordanian or Egyptian peace agreement," he said. "But it will overshadow the increasing cooperation on the security side, and it will make it harder to come out of the closet with this cooperation, which is in Israel's interest."

For supporters of the Oslo peace process, now in its 23rd year, moving the embassy would bring catastrophe. U.S. policy has held that the status of East Jerusalem, which Israel won in the 1967 Six Day War, should be determined through negotiations with the Palestinians. In 1980, Israel officially annexed East Jerusalem, declaring the unified city as its capital. Since then, its municipal boundaries have expanded.

Already many observers are predicting blowback. Sarah Yerkes, a former U.S. diplomat who worked at the State Department's bureau of Palestinian Affairs, said Monday at an event for the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, "You could see an uprising from Palestinians, the Egyptians and the Jordanians."

Saeb Erekhat, the Palestinian Authority's chief negotiator, said Monday such a move would result in his organization officially withdrawing recognition of Israel.

Now it should be noted that Erekhat is always threatening to quit the peace process. Matthew Kalman, an Israel-based journalist, helpfully compiled Erekhat's previous threats along these lines. What's more, it's worth asking whether the Palestinians could get any angrier at Israel. During the Barack Obama presidency, Israelis have endured a "stabbing intifada" as well as waves of Palestinians committing arson and vehicular slaughter in the name of resistance. All the while, the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas, has praised the killers in public as martyrs and heroes.

At the same time, Abbas has not ended security cooperation with Israel. When social media encouraged Palestinians to stab Jews at random, Abbas quietly dispatched his police to confiscate knives from high schools.

All of this gets to the particular predicament a sudden embassy move would pose to Israel. It's fair to ask how much worse things could get on the Palestinian street. Still, the Israelis have a lot to lose behind the scenes.

Part of this is because of the rise of Iran. Israel and Saudi Arabia, who were bitter enemies for the first half-century of the Jewish State's existence, today are quiet partners in trying to check Iran's rise. The same is true with the United Arab Emirates. With Egypt and Jordan, Israel has peace treaties, which explicitly state that the status of Jerusalem should be determined through negotiations.

Arab diplomats in recent days have told me that they worry an embassy move would stoke violent protests in their own countries.

Part of this problem can be mitigated. Writing in the New York Sun, former State Department official Efraim Cohen sketched out how Trump could decide to call the U.S. consulate in West Jerusalem an "embassy," and avoid the messy process of actually constructing a new compound inside Israel's capital. If this move was coupled with a rhetorical commitment to the Palestinians, reiterating the U.S. position that Jerusalem's status should be negotiated, Trump and his new ambassador could thread the needle.

All of that said, is this worth the risk? To be sure, it has its upsides. Israel since its founding has fought a political war with most of the world just for recognition of its right to exist. A U.S. embassy in Jerusalem is a potent symbol that the world's most powerful democracy affirms that right without condition.

But it is nonetheless just a symbol. Today, Israel has tangible diplomatic opportunities in the region its founders could have never imagined. The Saudis work closely on security and intelligence challenges with a state it still officially calls, "the Zionist entity." Israel's relationships with Jordan and Egypt have never been better, despite the fact that the peace process is a dead letter.

If Trump wants to be a good friend to Israel, he will focus on how to bring these relationships out into the open. That will be harder to do if one of his first acts as president is to move the embassy to Jerusalem.
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:39 PM   #18
Just Passin' By Just Passin' By is offline
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:51 PM   #19
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Exactly what an anti-Semite would do
Bingo. This is going to confuse the **** out of libtards as they call Trump a Nazi and bash this at the same time.
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:55 PM   #20
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:14 PM   #21
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This is being done in response to the anti-Israel shit the UN pulled recently. It's like they exist for the purpose of bashing Israel at this point. Nations committing active genocides don't get that much attention.

This is not happening in a vacuum, and Trump isn't an authority to designate anything a capital in Jerusalem anyway.
I don't know if it's in retaliation or not, but you're right he isn't an authority to designate a capital in Jerusalem for Israel. It's supposed to be an international city as a special status due to its shared religious importance. It's clear that Trump is revealing that he is a NeoCon more and more—even cherry-picking intel about Iran as Bush did to suit another elective war by building a case for the public. Only it's based on lies.

As far as I am concerned, this is designed to provoke Muslims and it's a provocative and very bad move. I see it as something Ariel Sharon did, when he purposely incited one of the Antifada uprising when he visited the Temple Mount. It's bad enough over there, that we don't have to go provoking iusses to make things worse.

Even the right-wing Jerusalem Post says the settlements are illegal if permanent housing is built on them. If only taken for defense and security during their on-going war, then that is legal. Israel should NOT be excused from such rules.
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:20 PM   #22
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I don't really care what city the Israelis choose to be their capital.
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:21 PM   #23
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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I don't really care what city the Israelis choose to be their capital.
So you oppose Trump endorsing all of Jerusalem, including East Jerusalem which Palestinians want for their country, as the Israeli capital?
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:23 PM   #24
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Why should Israel agree to a "two-state" solution?
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:23 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post

Israel Needs Its Arab Friends More Than U.S. Embassy Move
The big risk of relocating in Jerusalem isn't that it will anger the Palestinians, but that it will anger the Saudis.
Never mind the Saudis, it will also piss off many Catholics, as previous Popes supported Jerusalem being an international city. (not that the current Pope is a good ally) It doesn't just belong to the Jews, but Christians and Muslims too. It's a Holy City holding a special place in each of the Abrahamic religions all around the world.

This was set back in 1947 with the Partition Plan, but the ****ing British left before doing anything to implement it leaving a power vacuum. British, and to a lesser degree France, were the greatest facilitators of MidEast conflict, often betraying their promises and agreements.
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:24 PM   #26
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So you oppose Trump endorsing all of Jerusalem, including East Jerusalem which Palestinians want for their country, as the Israeli capital?
Palestine can suck it.
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:25 PM   #27
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Why should Israel agree to a "two-state" solution?
Well, I'd rather they fight it out on their own without us saying or doing much.
But since we are, this is the way to go.
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:25 PM   #28
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:25 PM   #29
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:27 PM   #30
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco View Post
Why should Israel agree to a "two-state" solution?
Morally, or geopolitically?
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