Home Mail MemberMap Chat (0) Wallpapers
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > The Royal Lounge > D.C.

View Poll Results: Should we have invaded Iraq on 3/19/03?
Yes 16 15.53%
No 84 81.55%
Too close to call at this point. Leave it to Gaz. Also, I'm a wishy-washy fop of a human being. 3 2.91%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-19-2013, 06:56 AM  
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
In BB I trust
 
Amnorix's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Boston, Mass.
Casino cash: $8775
Invasion of Iraq 10 years later: Good move or mistake

10 years ago today the US invaded Iraq to overthrow the regime of Saddam Hussein. The after-effects of that decision are still being felt to this day, and obviously will continue to play out in the years and decades to come. At this milestone, however, knowing everything that you know now, should we have gone in, or not?

Regrets and hypotheticals aren't really the goal here. We could go on and on (and have, many times) about how the post-invasion situation was handled, etc. ad infinitum. You should vote simply on the facts as they have actually occurred over the last 10 years.

Poll forthcoming. Note that it will be a public poll.
Posts: 33,541
Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.Amnorix has an IQ even higher than Frankie's.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2013, 08:58 AM   #331
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
You logic was "Government keep secerts", which isn't logical at all. Anyone could say that about anything to try and end a argument. You also failed to provide any type of citation to backup your spin. Why was the information withheld from the public?

Again, do you have any actual evidence, besides "government keeps secrets" for your views? Can you prove we were not lied too?

It also isn't cherry picking when, hey guess what, they were right. Or did we find WMDs?
1. The "Governments keep secrets" comment was in response to your inane question asking me if I can prove the government didn't withhold any information. Every government withholds information. I'm not trying to prove the government didn't withhold information. The only argument I'm trying to end with that comment was the stupid strawman that you were creating.

2. You're trying to prove that Bush/Cheney misled the country. I can't prove the negative here. All I can do is refute your evidence and point out that you haven't proven your case.

You focused on two specifics in post 302. I countered one with a fact by citing the Butler Report although I did forget to provide a link (you can find it here in pdf form). And I pointed out that neither of those arguments meets the threshold required to prove your point because the existence of contradictory raw intel does not in any way indicate that the people who put together the overall intel assessment knew they were wrong. The reasonableness of their final assessment depends on what the rest of the raw intel was indicating. That's where logic comes into play.

3. Cherry picking has nothing to do with whether or not the cherry picked fact turns out to be right or wrong. In this case it has to do with whether or not the cherry picked fact was consistent or inconsistent with the broader base of intelligence. If I show you one play of a football game, let's say a successful field goal by Ryan Succop, and ask you who won and what was the final score, can you answer that question with any confidence? Of course not. Even if that was the only score in the game, you don't know that. That cherry picked information doesn't tell you much other than that the Chiefs didn't get shut out.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 06:45 AM   #332
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
Veteran
 
Loneiguana's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Springfield
Casino cash: $7635
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
1. The "Governments keep secrets" comment was in response to your inane question asking me if I can prove the government didn't withhold any information. Every government withholds information. I'm not trying to prove the government didn't withhold information. The only argument I'm trying to end with that comment was the stupid strawman that you were creating.

2. You're trying to prove that Bush/Cheney misled the country. I can't prove the negative here. All I can do is refute your evidence and point out that you haven't proven your case.

You focused on two specifics in post 302. I countered one with a fact by citing the Butler Report although I did forget to provide a link (you can find it here in pdf form). And I pointed out that neither of those arguments meets the threshold required to prove your point because the existence of contradictory raw intel does not in any way indicate that the people who put together the overall intel assessment knew they were wrong. The reasonableness of their final assessment depends on what the rest of the raw intel was indicating. That's where logic comes into play.

3. Cherry picking has nothing to do with whether or not the cherry picked fact turns out to be right or wrong. In this case it has to do with whether or not the cherry picked fact was consistent or inconsistent with the broader base of intelligence. If I show you one play of a football game, let's say a successful field goal by Ryan Succop, and ask you who won and what was the final score, can you answer that question with any confidence? Of course not. Even if that was the only score in the game, you don't know that. That cherry picked information doesn't tell you much other than that the Chiefs didn't get shut out.

The broader range of intelligence. The fact that you type that I can tell that you did not look at any of the evidence and I the only way for me to force you to consider it is to personally lay it out here.

I provided two examples from a long list of evidence and they by no means make up all the evidence. You insistence on focusing on two examples out of a mountain of evidence is intellectually dishonest. The only reason I personally laid those two out was to get to to actually address what the source says instead of attacking it. Apparently, that didn't work.

Let's look at more examples since this is the only way you actually look at this stuff. (Don't be stupid and assume those two are the only ones)

9/26/02 Classified DIA assessment of Iraq's chemical weapons concludes there is "no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing and stockpiling chemical weapons." [Date the public knew: 5/30/03]

9/28/02 Bush's address to nation: "The Iraqi regime possesses biological and chemical weapons, is rebuilding the facilities to make more, and, according to the British government, could launch a biological or chemical attack in as little as 45 minutes after the order is given."

Nope, no misleading there at all. I mean, Bush did say the might have weapons, correct. Not a hundred percent certain he had weapons.

In response to your yellow cake comment, they were warned that wasn't true too.

10/6/02 NSC memo to White House warning of the Niger uranium claim: "The evidence is weak…the Africa story is overblown." [Date the public knew: 4/23/06]
(If only you would actually read the evidence I provided)


Let me try easier questions. Who did the government believe when they were told Iraq and WMD's? Do they have more sources than Curveball? You have told me who they shouldn't have believed (though those people were right).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ditS_blog.html

"“Curveball,” the man whose lies about weapons of mass destruction helped form the basis for invading Iraq, has come clean in an interview with the BBC, as reported by British news site the Independent.


“Curveball” (Guardian - YouTube) Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi, whose CIA cryptonym is Curveball, is an Iraqi chemical engineer who defected from Iraq in 1999 and subsequently invented claims about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction.

On the BBC interview Modern Spies, when Janabi is told “we went to war in Iraq on a lie. And that lie was your lie,” he responds, only: “Yes.”

The story of Curveball and his fictitious reports have been narrated in newspaper articles and books, but until now, Janabi had not publicly come clean."

----

2/4/03 After reading draft of Powell's speech, CIA agent emails his superior with concerns about "the validity of the information based on 'CURVE BALL.'" Noting he's the only US agent to have ever met Curveball (who was hung over at the time), the agent asks: "We sure didn't give much credence to this report when it came out. Why now?" Deputy head of CIA's Iraqi Task Force responds: "Let's keep in mind the fact that this war's going to happen regardless of what Curveball said or didn't say…the Powers That Be probably aren't terribly interested in whether Curveball knows what he's talking about." [Date the public knew: 7/9/04]
Posts: 4,032
Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 06:57 AM   #333
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
Veteran
 
Loneiguana's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Springfield
Casino cash: $7635
Lets keep going. Pay special attention to when the public actually knew.

9/21/01 Bush briefed by intel community that there is no evidence linking Saddam to 9/11. [Date the public knew: 11/22/05]

12/9/01 Cheney on Meet the Press: "Well, the evidence is pretty conclusive that the Iraqis have indeed harbored terrorists." Also claims 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta met with Iraqi spy in Prague, a claim he'll repeat long after CIA and Czechs disavow.

Former Ambassador Joseph Wilson sent to Niger to check out claims Iraq buying uranium-rich yellowcake. [Date the public knew: 7/6/03]
3/5/02 Joe Wilson tells CIA there's no indication that Iraq is buying yellowcake. [Date the public knew: 7/6/03]

May 2002 Primary corroborator of Curveball's claims that Iraq has mobile weapons labs is judged a liar and Chalabi plant by DIA. A fabricator warning is posted in US intelligence databases. [Date the public knew: 3/28/04]


Summer 2002 French debunk yellowcake theory: "We told the Americans, 'Bullshit. It doesn't make any sense,'" says French official. [Date the public knew: 12/11/05]

8/26/02 "There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends…and against us." —Cheney

/no doubt! What a lie!

Sep. 2002 Tyler Drumheller, CIA's European operations chief, calls German Embassy in Washington seeking access to Curveball. Germans warn he's "crazy" and "probably a fabricator." [Date the public knew: 11/20/05]
Posts: 4,032
Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.Loneiguana would the whole thing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 09:31 AM   #334
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
The broader range of intelligence. The fact that you type that I can tell that you did not look at any of the evidence and I the only way for me to force you to consider it is to personally lay it out here.

I provided two examples from a long list of evidence and they by no means make up all the evidence. You insistence on focusing on two examples out of a mountain of evidence is intellectually dishonest. The only reason I personally laid those two out was to get to to actually address what the source says instead of attacking it. Apparently, that didn't work.
Why didn't you lead off with your strongest evidence then? Why focus first on two items that are so easily debunked?
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 09:43 AM   #335
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Let's look at more examples since this is the only way you actually look at this stuff. (Don't be stupid and assume those two are the only ones)

9/26/02 Classified DIA assessment of Iraq's chemical weapons concludes there is "no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing and stockpiling chemical weapons." [Date the public knew: 5/30/03]

9/28/02 Bush's address to nation: "The Iraqi regime possesses biological and chemical weapons, is rebuilding the facilities to make more, and, according to the British government, could launch a biological or chemical attack in as little as 45 minutes after the order is given."

Nope, no misleading there at all. I mean, Bush did say the might have weapons, correct. Not a hundred percent certain he had weapons.
Again, you use cherry picked information and leave out the big picture. I'd accuse you of intentionally trying to mislead except that I just don't think you're smart enough to recognize this since you keep making the same mistake. You're just another victim of the liberal media bubble, but I'm here to help.

Here's the first key judgment in the National Intelligence Estimate for 2002 (pdf):

Quote:
We judge that Iraq has continued its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs in defiance of UN resolutions and restrictions. Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of UN restrictions; if left unchecked, it will probably have a nuclear weapon during this decade.
The difference between the National Intelligence Estimate and your DIA assessment is that the former represents the big picture understanding based on all of the intelligence available to our country and the latter represents the judgment based on only one agency's inputs. Your thought leaders cherry picked the latter in order to lead you astray and it is apparently working. Now you've been informed so there are no more excuses.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.

Last edited by patteeu; 03-26-2013 at 09:55 AM..
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 09:48 AM   #336
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
In response to your yellow cake comment, they were warned that wasn't true too.

10/6/02 NSC memo to White House warning of the Niger uranium claim: "The evidence is weak…the Africa story is overblown." [Date the public knew: 4/23/06]
(If only you would actually read the evidence I provided)
The Bush SotU statement was literally true. 100% true. British intel was indeed making that claim. Lord Butler concluded that the Bush statement was "well founded". No one should have come away from the SotU speech with the impression that the US had independently confirmed this claim. If you did, that's on you. At some point, you, as a consumer of political speech, have to take some responsibility for listening to and reasonably interpreting their words.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 09:54 AM   #337
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Let me try easier questions. Who did the government believe when they were told Iraq and WMD's? Do they have more sources than Curveball? You have told me who they shouldn't have believed (though those people were right).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ditS_blog.html

"“Curveball,” the man whose lies about weapons of mass destruction helped form the basis for invading Iraq, has come clean in an interview with the BBC, as reported by British news site the Independent.


“Curveball” (Guardian - YouTube) Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi, whose CIA cryptonym is Curveball, is an Iraqi chemical engineer who defected from Iraq in 1999 and subsequently invented claims about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction.

On the BBC interview Modern Spies, when Janabi is told “we went to war in Iraq on a lie. And that lie was your lie,” he responds, only: “Yes.”

The story of Curveball and his fictitious reports have been narrated in newspaper articles and books, but until now, Janabi had not publicly come clean."

----

2/4/03 After reading draft of Powell's speech, CIA agent emails his superior with concerns about "the validity of the information based on 'CURVE BALL.'" Noting he's the only US agent to have ever met Curveball (who was hung over at the time), the agent asks: "We sure didn't give much credence to this report when it came out. Why now?" Deputy head of CIA's Iraqi Task Force responds: "Let's keep in mind the fact that this war's going to happen regardless of what Curveball said or didn't say…the Powers That Be probably aren't terribly interested in whether Curveball knows what he's talking about." [Date the public knew: 7/9/04]
I haven't told you anything about who they should or shouldn't believe. All I've told you is that your hindsight-aided truevision can't be held against them and your cherry-picked case against them crumbles in the face of the broad array of sometimes contradictory raw intelligence that had to be distilled into an overall assessment. Curveball existed and while some in the intelligence community were skeptical of him, others considered him a legitimate eye witness. In the end, his lies led our intelligence community astray and that faulty intelligence product caused the political leadership to act on a false understanding of the situation. They didn't mislead, they were just wrong.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 09:58 AM   #338
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Lets keep going. Pay special attention to when the public actually knew.

9/21/01 Bush briefed by intel community that there is no evidence linking Saddam to 9/11. [Date the public knew: 11/22/05]

12/9/01 Cheney on Meet the Press: "Well, the evidence is pretty conclusive that the Iraqis have indeed harbored terrorists." Also claims 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta met with Iraqi spy in Prague, a claim he'll repeat long after CIA and Czechs disavow.
1. Saddam's Iraq did harbor terrorists. There's no dispute about that.

2. Cheney's Meet the Press comments about Czech intel are explained earlier in this thread. You can read about it in post 315 and in the exchange between BigRedChief and myself leading up to that post. And you need to see exactly what Cheney said about Atta and Prague before you can even begin to claim that he misled anyone.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 10:05 AM   #339
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Former Ambassador Joseph Wilson sent to Niger to check out claims Iraq buying uranium-rich yellowcake. [Date the public knew: 7/6/03]
3/5/02 Joe Wilson tells CIA there's no indication that Iraq is buying yellowcake. [Date the public knew: 7/6/03]

May 2002 Primary corroborator of Curveball's claims that Iraq has mobile weapons labs is judged a liar and Chalabi plant by DIA. A fabricator warning is posted in US intelligence databases. [Date the public knew: 3/28/04]


Summer 2002 French debunk yellowcake theory: "We told the Americans, 'Bullshit. It doesn't make any sense,'" says French official. [Date the public knew: 12/11/05]

...

Sep. 2002 Tyler Drumheller, CIA's European operations chief, calls German Embassy in Washington seeking access to Curveball. Germans warn he's "crazy" and "probably a fabricator." [Date the public knew: 11/20/05]

Now you're revisiting territory that's already been debunked. No matter how many cherry-picked instances of doubt that was expressed in particular pieces of raw intelligence, the fact remains that the weight of the full array of evidence is expressed in the National Intelligence Estimate. The Bush/Cheney administration were reasonable in their reliance on the final product of our intelligence community. It's unreasonable to use hindsight to decide after the fact, which pieces of raw intelligence they should have believed and which they should have discounted.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 10:06 AM   #340
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is online now
Debunking your bullshit
 
cosmo20002's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: KC area
Casino cash: $15145
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
1. Saddam's Iraq did harbor terrorists. There's no dispute about that.

2. Cheney's Meet the Press comments about Czech intel are explained earlier in this thread. You can read about it in post 315 and in the exchange between BigRedChief and myself leading up to that post. And you need to see exactly what Cheney said about Atta and Prague before you can even begin to claim that he misled anyone.
"Saddam's Iraq" harbored terrorists the same way "George W's United States" harbored terrorists. Terrorists lived here. They trained here. W harbored them!
__________________
Posts: 19,372
cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 10:09 AM   #341
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
8/26/02 "There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends…and against us." —Cheney
Saddam had tons of WMD left over from the first Gulf War that he failed to account for per the terms of his agreement with weapons inspectors.

Intelligence agencies around the world and both democrats and Republicans in the United States believed this. mlyonsd posted several statements from democrats expressing similar views earlier in this thread. But Dick Cheney is somehow the only person who is supposed to have seen through the intelligence and recognized that everyone else was wrong.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 10:19 AM   #342
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
"Saddam's Iraq" harbored terrorists the same way "George W's United States" harbored terrorists. Terrorists lived here. They trained here. W harbored them!
No, Saddam's Iraq harbored terrorists in a way similar to the way the US has harbored communist defectors like the NHL's Sergei Fedorov and Alexander Mogilny.

See for example, Abu Nidal and Muhammad Zaidan.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 06:39 PM   #343
Comrade Crapski Comrade Crapski is offline
Banned
 

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Sea of Green 23.4°
Casino cash: $5000
Another trip down moonbat memory lane

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,264334,00.html

meeting with Syrian President Bashar Assad, Pelosi said, "The road to Damascus is a road to peace."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...#ixzz2e4JbyLSs
Posts: 3,833
Comrade Crapski is too fat/Omaha.Comrade Crapski is too fat/Omaha.Comrade Crapski is too fat/Omaha.Comrade Crapski is too fat/Omaha.Comrade Crapski is too fat/Omaha.Comrade Crapski is too fat/Omaha.Comrade Crapski is too fat/Omaha.Comrade Crapski is too fat/Omaha.Comrade Crapski is too fat/Omaha.Comrade Crapski is too fat/Omaha.Comrade Crapski is too fat/Omaha.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 06:50 PM   #344
Chocolate Hog Chocolate Hog is offline
Winner
 
Chocolate Hog's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: My house
Casino cash: $8520
The Iraq war was a disaster. Its sad how many young men and women of my generation we lost over a war that didn't need to be fought
Posts: 34,627
Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 06:52 PM   #345
RedNeckRaider RedNeckRaider is offline
Got highway?
 
RedNeckRaider's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Close to the big pond~
Casino cash: $7324
I have an idea someone should start a poll asking if Barry pushing chips in Afghanistan was a good idea~
__________________
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump.
David Ormsby Gore~
Posts: 24,204
RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.RedNeckRaider is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:14 PM.


This is a test for a client's site.
A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.