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View Poll Results: Should we have invaded Iraq on 3/19/03?
Yes 16 15.53%
No 84 81.55%
Too close to call at this point. Leave it to Gaz. Also, I'm a wishy-washy fop of a human being. 3 2.91%
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:56 AM  
Amnorix Amnorix is offline
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Invasion of Iraq 10 years later: Good move or mistake

10 years ago today the US invaded Iraq to overthrow the regime of Saddam Hussein. The after-effects of that decision are still being felt to this day, and obviously will continue to play out in the years and decades to come. At this milestone, however, knowing everything that you know now, should we have gone in, or not?

Regrets and hypotheticals aren't really the goal here. We could go on and on (and have, many times) about how the post-invasion situation was handled, etc. ad infinitum. You should vote simply on the facts as they have actually occurred over the last 10 years.

Poll forthcoming. Note that it will be a public poll.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:56 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Here's another fallacy that nonetheless gives people something to consider. That document was compiled by a purely partisan group of democrat staffers for Henry Waxman. What do you think the chances are that the document itself is misleading?
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:57 PM   #92
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Your characterization was a simplistic characterization of a complex situation. While it's true that a few individuals might have believed something that turned out to be both true and contrary to the final intel assessment, it's completely misleading and essentially false to say that the CIA (or MI6) knew that their final assessment was wrong.
I appreciate your opinion but I stand by agree to disagree.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:58 PM   #93
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Iraq attacked our aircraft in the no fly zone on a regular basis.



The Bush administration made it clear that they believed in a world where nation states no longer necessarily mass troops on a border before waging war on their neighbor, traditional analysis that requires an imminent threat to justify preemptive war can no longer satisfy the security requirements of a modern nation. Agree or disagree, your focus on imminent threat is a strawman. No one claimed that Iraq was a direct and imminent threat to the US homeland.
The focus on an imminent threat is not a strawman. It's charity on my part. In the absence of an imminent threat, then there's not even the possibility for a justifiable preemptive attack on another country. Instead, it would simply be a supreme crime.

Escalating into a war an armed conflict against a weak and contained country because it is attacking planes that fly over it is financially irresponsible, besides being morally bankrupt.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:58 PM   #94
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I appreciate your opinion but I stand by agree to disagree.
OK.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:59 PM   #95
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http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/03/1...no-active-wmd/

New evidence: CIA and MI6 were told before invasion that Iraq had no active WMD

By Richard Norton-Taylor, The Guardian
Monday, March 18, 2013 3:21 EDT

BBC’s Panorama reveals fresh evidence that agencies dismissed intelligence from Iraq foreign minister and spy chief

Fresh evidence is revealed today about how MI6 and the CIA were told through secret channels by Saddam Hussein’s foreign minister and his head of intelligence that Iraq had no active weapons of mass destruction.

Tony Blair told parliament before the war that intelligence showed Iraq’s nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons programme was “active”, “growing” and “up and running”.



A special BBC Panorama programme tonight will reveal how British and US intelligence agencies were informed by top sources months before the invasion that Iraq had no active WMD programme, and that the information was not passed to subsequent inquiries.

It describes how Naji Sabri, Saddam’s foreign minister, told the CIA’s station chief in Paris at the time, Bill Murray, through an intermediary that Iraq had “virtually nothing” in terms of WMD.

Sabri said in a statement that the Panorama story was “totally fabricated”.

However, Panorama confirms that three months before the war an MI6 officer met Iraq’s head of intelligence, Tahir Habbush al-Tikriti, who also said that Saddam had no active WMD. The meeting in the Jordanian capital, Amman, took place days before the British government published its now widely discredited Iraqi weapons dossier in September 2002.

Lord Butler, the former cabinet secretary who led an inquiry into the use of intelligence in the runup to the invasion of Iraq, tells the programme that he was not told about Sabri’s comments, and that he should have been.

Butler says of the use of intelligence: “There were ways in which people were misled or misled themselves at all stages.”


When it was suggested to him that the body that probably felt most misled of all was the British public, Butler replied: “Yes, I think they’re, they’re, they got every reason think that.”

The programme shows how the then chief of MI6, Sir Richard Dearlove, responded to information from Iraqi sources later acknowledged to be unreliable.

One unidentified MI6 officer has told the Chilcot inquiry that at one stage information was “being torn off the teleprinter and rushed across to Number 10″.

Another said it was “wishful thinking… [that] promised the crock of gold at the end of the rainbow”.

The programme says that MI6 stood by claims that Iraq was buying uranium from Niger, though these were dismissed by other intelligence agencies, including the French.

It also shows how claims by Iraqis were treated seriously by elements in MI6 and the CIA even after they were exposed as fabricated including claims, notably about alleged mobile biological warfare containers, made by Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi, a German source codenamed Curveball. He admitted to the Guardian in 2011 that all the information he gave to the west was fabricated.

Panorama says it asked for an interview with Blair but he said he was “too busy”.

• The Spies Who Fooled the World, BBC Panorama Special, BBC1, Monday, 18 March, 10.35pm
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:02 PM   #96
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I need to read this someday too:
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:03 PM   #97
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Here's another fallacy that nonetheless gives people something to consider. That document was compiled by a purely partisan group of democrat staffers for Henry Waxman. What do you think the chances are that the document itself is misleading?
The actually quotes they provide? Not misleading at all. And I form my opinions by what the administration said.
/darn lamestream media quoting people
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:05 PM   #98
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No fly zone is a fiction. Those were not legal and the UN didn't create any. If some hostile foreign country flew over our air space, we'd shoot 'em down too.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:10 PM   #99
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
No fly zone is a fiction. Those were not legal and the UN didn't create any. If some hostile foreign country flew over our air space, we'd shoot 'em down too.
I won't admit to agreeing with much of what you say, but I agree with this. Its just creepy to think about some other country controlling our airspace. And then drones? At least I might see the plane. Drones are getting small.

As an aspiring writing, I've though of attempting to churn out a short story with such a setting where America's mid west is air patrolled by a foreign country. Could be a fun story.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:11 PM   #100
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Sure he did. Link?
He lied about numerous things related. ( There were others who knew there were no active wmd) This link is a blog but uses other media links. You'll probably say it's the NYT but as I recall Judith Miller wrote for them and pushed for war in Iraq too.


In a documentary soon to appear on Showtime, “The World According to Dick Cheney,” [Cheney said] he admits his lies. http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/...about-911.html
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:12 PM   #101
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
I won't admit to agreeing with much of what you say, but I agree with this. Its just creepy to think about some other country controlling our airspace. And then drones? At least I might see the plane. Drones are getting small.

As an aspiring writing, I've though of attempting to churn out a short story with such a setting where America's mid west is air patrolled by a foreign country. Could be a fun story.
Actually, I agree with the progressive left on the Iraq debacle more than the right. In fact, not much at all with the right. I feel the NCs poisoned their minds and they drank the Kool-Aid. Paleo-cons did not agree with the Iraq invasion and occupation.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:13 PM   #102
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Man, the revisionist horseshit is really piling up in here.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:18 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/03/1...no-active-wmd/

New evidence: CIA and MI6 were told before invasion that Iraq had no active WMD

By Richard Norton-Taylor, The Guardian
Monday, March 18, 2013 3:21 EDT

BBC’s Panorama reveals fresh evidence that agencies dismissed intelligence from Iraq foreign minister and spy chief

Fresh evidence is revealed today about how MI6 and the CIA were told through secret channels by Saddam Hussein’s foreign minister and his head of intelligence that Iraq had no active weapons of mass destruction.

Tony Blair told parliament before the war that intelligence showed Iraq’s nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons programme was “active”, “growing” and “up and running”.

A special BBC Panorama programme tonight will reveal how British and US intelligence agencies were informed by top sources months before the invasion that Iraq had no active WMD programme, and that the information was not passed to subsequent inquiries.

It describes how Naji Sabri, Saddam’s foreign minister, told the CIA’s station chief in Paris at the time, Bill Murray, through an intermediary that Iraq had “virtually nothing” in terms of WMD.

Sabri said in a statement that the Panorama story was “totally fabricated”.

However, Panorama confirms that three months before the war an MI6 officer met Iraq’s head of intelligence, Tahir Habbush al-Tikriti, who also said that Saddam had no active WMD. The meeting in the Jordanian capital, Amman, took place days before the British government published its now widely discredited Iraqi weapons dossier in September 2002.
It's shocking that the Iraqi foreign minister and the Iraqi head of intelligence would tell us that Saddam didn't have WMD. How is it possible that we didn't simply accept that at face value?

And you should always be skeptical of quotes you read in articles like this because they are often misleading. (Isn't it kind of outrageous that people who are trying to convince you that the government misled you are themselves trying to do exactly that?) For example, here are a couple of quotes from the article you posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Butler says of the use of intelligence: “There were ways in which people were misled or misled themselves at all stages.”

When it was suggested to him that the body that probably felt most misled of all was the British public, Butler replied: “Yes, I think they’re, they’re, they got every reason think that.”
In the documentary, those two quotes take place in the same conversation. Here's what Lord Butler says in between those two statements:

Quote:
However, I do believe that these were honest mistakes. Where not only the British intelligence community, but intelligence communities all over the world, brought themselves to a conclusion that turned out to be false.
That changes the implication of the included quotes substantially.

Here's another quote from the film:

Quote:
Blair's critics have accused him of deliberately sexing up the dossier by omitting these qualifications and including flaky intelligence.

Was Tony Blair a liar?

Butler: No, I don't believe he was a liar. I believe that when he said what he believed about Saddam Hussein, he was speaking the truth. But I think because the qualifications on the evidence weren't made clear, I think he oversold the case.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:20 PM   #104
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:23 PM   #105
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The actually quotes they provide? Not misleading at all. And I form my opinions by what the administration said.
/darn lamestream media quoting people
You realize that many of those quotes represent what the speaker believed at the time, right? Those aren't examples of lies and they aren't examples of people intentionally trying to mislead. They're examples of people getting something wrong. But when you compile them together to get a large number of what you call misleading statements, you give the impression that they were intentionally misleading.
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