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Old 11-13-2012, 09:54 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state."

Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN.

The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state.

While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN.

Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility.

But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity.

The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN.

As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name.

So things are going to get really, really fascinating.

I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...rver-state-bid

Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid
By Flavia Krause-Jackson
on November 08, 2012

Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process.

The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power.

The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there.

The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News.

By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama.

In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN.

Issue Fades

The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago.

Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010.

Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said.

Still, the move isn’t without risks.

When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget.

The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states.

International Criminal Court

The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes.

“Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.”

The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel.

As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:34 AM   #286
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Update to the thread: Israel has agreed to temporarily suspend a ground invasion.

Hillary Clinton is on her way to Tel Aviv. Morsi and the Egyptian mediation has scored a minor, tentative victory.

Sometimes, if you can put a pin back in the grenade for a day, reason can find a way.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:58 AM   #287
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Andrew Sullivan:

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With each of these incursions, Israel is even further embittering and alienating the next generation of Arabs, a generation that will likely determine the future of an increasingly democratic and populist Middle East. As time goes by, technology will also steadily increase the chances of conflict reaching within 1967-lines Israel itself. As Hamas's and Hezbollah's rockets gain greater range and accuracy, Israel's relentless colonization of Palestinian land on the West Bank will encourage them further.

In other words, without diplomacy toward a two-state solution, we are looking at a lifetime of constant Israeli warfare against all of its neighbors, deeper isolation in the region (with Turkey and Egypt already fast moving away) and growing international pariah status as Greater Israel becomes more fundamentalist and less democratic. And at some point, as America's energy revolution leaves us less and less exposed to Middle East oil, and as the national interest becomes more attuned to events in Asia and the Pacific, and as the occupation turns Israel into the South Africa of the 21st Century, the Jewish state will become a self-evident burden for America, spawning terror and conflict and anti-Americanism as far as the eye can see. If all Israel can count on then are America's Christianists and the current GOP, if they continue to spurn American attempts to unwind the conflict by undoing the settlements, then Israelis should be genuinely afraid for their future. I sure am.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:17 AM   #288
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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Once again, Israel acts like the adults.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:52 AM   #289
stevieray stevieray is offline
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I give defleckshun a hard time on this issue, but it's only fair to say that his "wish" will come true..on both counts.

why? prophecy in the Bible...it was prophecied that Israel would be scattered among the nations, brought back to their homeland, and the Hebrew language maintained during exile and restored in the land of Israel....it was also prophecied that the land would be a barren desert and would once again blossom when the Jews came home.

It's also been prophecied that a false peace would be achieved, and the Jews, for the first time in almost 2000 years, would be able to rebuild their temple and resume sacrifices..that rebuilding is set in place and ready to go..

Prophecy states that Israel would be a trembling cup to ALL nations, including the US...Now that might come about from an act perpetrated by Israel, or the fact that we've been neutered, either economically or militarily. the fact is, we're a non player.... we'll see an Islamic ten nation alliance put in place to go after the Jews.....and three and a half years later, shit will hit the fan.

Be patient young one, it's gonna happen.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:53 AM   #290
ForeverChiefs58 ForeverChiefs58 is offline
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I guess defleckshun just doesn't hear when the palestinians speak. They have NEVER, EVER sought peace. When they are all demonstrating and chanting "Death to Israel", "Death" does not stand for negotiate or seek peace. This is not a bluff, or just joking. The palistinians will always want war and death. Both the PLO and Hamas charter call for violence, death and hate.

Untill the people stand up and demand better, you'll look like a damn fool trying to spread blame around to both sides.

Do you know how much Israel does and gives in aid to help the palestinians?

Do you know how much the palestinians do or give?

Do you get why there is a blockaide?

Are you so pissed at Jordan or Egypt then? You realize they both have blockaids to the palestinians too right? Even with Morsi and their offshoot, the Muslim Brotherhood you realize they still have an Egyptian blockaid also in place that they maintain?

Because anyone with a brain isn't going to just lift the blockaid opening a flood gate to a terrorist group, knowing full well they will use it to bring in bigger weapons just to fire at more innocent citizens, to achieve their only real goal which is to kill more jews. Hey, you don't have to believe me, but just believe them when they say it.

You are a smart guy, with really great draft and football takes, but do you think you know what Israel or the palestinian territory is like sitting in Springfield Mo?
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:05 AM   #291
ForeverChiefs58 ForeverChiefs58 is offline
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Say the blockaid was lifted, do think the people would be better?

They wouldn't because the terrorists that were elected, and the people that put them in power only want to continue their terrorist behavior not seek peace. Which would then result in the deaths of many more.

Would you also try and negotiate with Al qaeda and work with them too?
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:11 AM   #292
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Israeli soldiers break their silence

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:31 AM   #293
ForeverChiefs58 ForeverChiefs58 is offline
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Such peace seekers

Senior Hamas military chief urges continued battle


GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — A man identified as the most elusive top military commander of Hamas is urging the group's fighters to keep up attacks on Israel.

Mohammed Deif, seriously wounded in an Israeli airstrike in 2003, says Hamas "must invest all resources to uproot this aggressor from our land," a reference to Israel.
He was speaking from hiding on Hamas-run TV and radio.

Deif is one of the founders of the Hamas military wing and was its top commander until he was wounded in 2003. He was replaced as by Ahmed Jabari, who was assassinated by Israel last week in the opening salvo of its latest Gaza offensive.

The speaker on TV and radio was introduced as Deif, and a Gaza reporter said the speaker sounded like Deif.


http://news.yahoo.com/senior-hamas-m...121743076.html
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:00 AM   #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I'm pretty sure if that option was available today, Palestinians would pretty much force Hamas to agree with it or see themselves get voted out in droves.

You'd take that deal though, right? I haven't got an answer from you, yet.
Pretty sure, eh?

No, no deal.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:12 AM   #295
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Would be some serious karma if their rockets hit their own holy sites. This is how bad they want peace


Palestinian rocket targets Jerusalem for 2nd time


JERUSALEM (AP) — A Palestinian rocket struck the outskirts of Jerusalem on Tuesday, landing harmlessly in an open area in one of the longest rocket strikes fired from the Gaza Strip in nearly a week of fighting.

The rocket attack, the second aimed at the holy city since an Israeli offensive began a week ago, set off air raid sirens throughout the metropolis. A distant explosion could be heard in the city's downtown. Jerusalem residents ran for cover as buses and trains stopped to let passengers off.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the rocket landed in Gush Etzion, a collection of Jewish West Bank settlements southeast of the city. Last Friday's attempt to hit Jerusalem landed in the same area. No one was wounded in either attack.

Jerusalem, nearly 80 kilometers (50 miles) from Gaza, is the most distant city the militants have targeted, signaling an increasing sophistication in their arsenal.

Tuesday's rocket attack occurred as diplomats were trying to work out a cease-fire. Israeli officials estimate that Gaza's Hamas rulers will try to stage similar attacks ahead of any truce taking hold.

The attacks aimed at Jerusalem and the Tel Aviv area have dramatically showcased the militants' new capabilities, including a locally made M-75 rocket that appears to have taken Israeli defense officials by surprise.

Both areas had remained outside the gunmen's reach in past rounds of fighting, and their use dramatically escalated the hostilities. For more than a decade, the militants' range had been limited to steadily broadening sections of southern Israel.

The attack on Jerusalem was especially audacious, both for its symbolism and its distance from Gaza. Jerusalem had previously been considered beyond the range of Gaza rockets — and an unlikely target because it is home to the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, Islam's third-holiest shrine.

http://news.yahoo.com/palestinian-ro...125135437.html
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:16 AM   #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Of all of these things, the only thing that's possible is the last item on your list, since that's the only one that doesn't require time travel.

Hamas will likely clamp down on its militant factions following whatever truce both sides strike in Cairo.
It doesn't require time travel for palestinians to unite under leadership that would oust Hamas, defang militants and make a real peace with Israel. It won't happen because there aren't enough palestinians who want that. Whether that's because they've been misled to believe that Israel is evil or because they are evil themselves doesn't really matter.

Even if Hamas clamps down on it's militant factions in the short term, it will just be a strategic lull in order to improve their position wrt Israel for the next conflict. That's not good faith. It's pretty much the opposite of good faith.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:19 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I'd just like to take a moment to say that Gaza is an area that is somewhat shut off from the world through an Israeli blockade. It's not open. You have 1.5 million people living in pretty crunched room, suffering widespread malnutritian, and despite the wealth of a select few, almost everybody is in poverty and relies on humanitarian aid for survival.

The Palestinian people voted in Hamas democratically, largely at the time because Hamas provided them by far the most humanitarian aid domestically. But Israel then did it's best United States impression: once you give some brown people you've occupied the right to vote, those people will usually vote in folks who hate you -- surprise! So Israel puts up a blockade to exert its disapproval upon the Palestinian people. This incites an understandable feeling of hopelessness and utter fear in Palestinians, which futher entrenches groups like Hamas who have absolutely no shame in exacerbating fear to keep themselves in power, even if it means sacrificing the lives of lowly foot soldiers or civilians.

That's the basic law of humanity -- if you close people up, make them feel hopeless, then they will gravitate towards extreme solutions which generally take the form of assholes like Hamas.

Now, Hamas can be dealt with. They are run by highly intelligent people with Ph.Ds in stuff like economics. They've negotiated ceasefires and often held up their end of the deal, though they sometimes can't control a few of their militant factions. And these were the people Palestinians declared represented them.

If there is to be hope, you must deal with Hamas. Do your best. Take the Obama route, if you must, and offer compromised, fair deals, partially built on ideas your opponents have offered. When your opponent refuses over and over again to take them, they will get slaughtered in elections and replaced by people that will, empowering your position further.
Why would Hamas go along with this pipe dream? Why wouldn't they create another conflict to make sure that the Gaza palestinians continue to need their protection? Is Israel then supposed to bend over and take it no matter how many Israelis die to avoid playing into Hamas' hands? This is an unworkable plan as long as there isn't a glimmer of hope that Hamas might be willing to choose peace and based on your posts in this thread you seem to concede that that glimmer doesn't exist.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:22 AM   #298
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what is being suggested is a way to win at the ballot box and displace hamas...

if they refuse reasonable concrete offers to settle the dispute over and over again and continue to rely on armed "resistance", the citizens of gaza will vote them out soon enough...

we haven't seen hamas "refuse peace" that was reasonable and allowed the creation of a palestinian state with control over it's own resources and resolved issues like sharing jerusalem and freezing further israeli settlements on the west bank...

to refuse such a deal would cause hamas to lose the support of the ordinary gazan pretty quickly...


contrary to popular belief, most palestinians want to live in peace in a free state, without israeli occupation and without ruthless extremists running their lives...

if israel offers such a deal, it could lead to hamas losing power, which is what everybody except hamas wants, isn't it?
This is nonsense, IMO. It didn't work to turn the palestinian people against Arafat's PLO (instead he rallied the 2nd intifada against Israel) so why should it work to turn them against Hamas?
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:22 PM   #299
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Nothing says your ready for peace more than ignoring efforts and constant rocket fire and some peace loving public executions.

Hamas militants publicly kill 6 suspected informers for Israel at Gaza City intersection

Masked gunmen publicly shot dead six suspected collaborators with Israel in a large Gaza City intersection Tuesday, witnesses said. An Associated Press reporter saw a large mob surrounding five of the bloodied corpses shortly after the killing.

Some in the crowd stomped and spit on the bodies. A sixth corpse was tied to a motorcycle and dragged through the streets as people screamed, "Spy! Spy!"

The Hamas military wing, Izzedine al-Qassam, claimed responsibility in a large handwritten note attached to a nearby electricity pole. Hamas said the six were killed because they gave Israel information about fighters and rocket launching sites.

The killing came on the seventh day of an Israeli military offensive that has killed more than 120 Palestinians, both militants and civilians. Israel has launched hundreds of airstrikes, targeting rocket launching sites, weapons caches and homes of Hamas activists, as Palestinians fired hundreds of rockets at Israel.

Israel relies on a network of local informers to identify its targets in Gaza.

The six were killed on Tuesday afternoon in Gaza City's Sheik Radwan neighbourhood.

Witnesses said a van stopped in the intersection, and four masked men pushed the six suspected informers out of the vehicle. Salim Mahmoud, 18, said the gunmen ordered the six to lie face down in the street and then shot them dead. Another witness, 13-year-old Mokhmen al-Gazhali, said the informers were killed one by one, as he mimicked the sound of gunfire.

They said only a few people were in the street at first — most Gazans have been staying indoors because of the Israeli airstrikes — but the crowd quickly grew after the killings. Eventually several hundred men pushed and shoved to get a close look at the bodies, lying in a jumble on the ground. One man spit at the corpses, another kicked the head of one of the dead men.

"They should have been killed in a more brutal fashion so others don't even think about working with the occupation (Israel)," said one of the bystanders, 24-year-old Ashraf Maher.

One body was then tied by a cable to the back of a motorcycle and dragged through the streets. A number of gunmen on motorcycles rode along as the body was pulled past a house of mourning for victims of an Israeli airstrike.

There is broad consensus among Palestinians that informers for Israel deserve harsh punishment, and it is rare to hear someone speak out against killings of alleged collaborators. Such public killings been carried out in the West Bank and Gaza since the first uprising against Israeli occupation in the late 1980s.

In Israel's last major Gaza offensive four years ago, 17 suspected collaborators who fled after their prisons were hit in airstrikes were later shot dead in extra-judicial killings.

During the current offensive, Tuesday's killings brought to eight the number of suspected informers being shot dead in public. On Friday, the body of one alleged informer was found in a garbage bin, and another was shot dead in the street. Hamas claimed responsibility for both killings.

Since seizing Gaza in 2007, Hamas has executed four informers by firing squad, and about a dozen more are on death row in Gaza.

http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-militant...170253367.html
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:44 PM   #300
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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Originally Posted by ForeverChiefs58 View Post
Nothing says your ready for peace more than ignoring efforts and constant rocket fire and some peace loving public executions.

Hamas militants publicly kill 6 suspected informers for Israel at Gaza City intersection

Masked gunmen publicly shot dead six suspected collaborators with Israel in a large Gaza City intersection Tuesday, witnesses said. An Associated Press reporter saw a large mob surrounding five of the bloodied corpses shortly after the killing.

Some in the crowd stomped and spit on the bodies. A sixth corpse was tied to a motorcycle and dragged through the streets as people screamed, "Spy! Spy!"

The Hamas military wing, Izzedine al-Qassam, claimed responsibility in a large handwritten note attached to a nearby electricity pole. Hamas said the six were killed because they gave Israel information about fighters and rocket launching sites.

The killing came on the seventh day of an Israeli military offensive that has killed more than 120 Palestinians, both militants and civilians. Israel has launched hundreds of airstrikes, targeting rocket launching sites, weapons caches and homes of Hamas activists, as Palestinians fired hundreds of rockets at Israel.

Israel relies on a network of local informers to identify its targets in Gaza.

The six were killed on Tuesday afternoon in Gaza City's Sheik Radwan neighbourhood.

Witnesses said a van stopped in the intersection, and four masked men pushed the six suspected informers out of the vehicle. Salim Mahmoud, 18, said the gunmen ordered the six to lie face down in the street and then shot them dead. Another witness, 13-year-old Mokhmen al-Gazhali, said the informers were killed one by one, as he mimicked the sound of gunfire.

They said only a few people were in the street at first — most Gazans have been staying indoors because of the Israeli airstrikes — but the crowd quickly grew after the killings. Eventually several hundred men pushed and shoved to get a close look at the bodies, lying in a jumble on the ground. One man spit at the corpses, another kicked the head of one of the dead men.

"They should have been killed in a more brutal fashion so others don't even think about working with the occupation (Israel)," said one of the bystanders, 24-year-old Ashraf Maher.

One body was then tied by a cable to the back of a motorcycle and dragged through the streets. A number of gunmen on motorcycles rode along as the body was pulled past a house of mourning for victims of an Israeli airstrike.

There is broad consensus among Palestinians that informers for Israel deserve harsh punishment, and it is rare to hear someone speak out against killings of alleged collaborators. Such public killings been carried out in the West Bank and Gaza since the first uprising against Israeli occupation in the late 1980s.

In Israel's last major Gaza offensive four years ago, 17 suspected collaborators who fled after their prisons were hit in airstrikes were later shot dead in extra-judicial killings.

During the current offensive, Tuesday's killings brought to eight the number of suspected informers being shot dead in public. On Friday, the body of one alleged informer was found in a garbage bin, and another was shot dead in the street. Hamas claimed responsibility for both killings.

Since seizing Gaza in 2007, Hamas has executed four informers by firing squad, and about a dozen more are on death row in Gaza.

http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-militant...170253367.html
Andrew Sullivan says this kind of behavior is Israel's fault.
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