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Old 11-13-2012, 09:54 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state."

Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN.

The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state.

While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN.

Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility.

But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity.

The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN.

As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name.

So things are going to get really, really fascinating.

I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...rver-state-bid

Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid
By Flavia Krause-Jackson
on November 08, 2012

Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process.

The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power.

The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there.

The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News.

By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama.

In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN.

Issue Fades

The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago.

Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010.

Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said.

Still, the move isn’t without risks.

When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget.

The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states.

International Criminal Court

The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes.

“Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.”

The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel.

As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:26 PM   #91
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I understand and appreciate those who want to see both sides on this, but its hard to understand the anger toward israel.

They've been taking unprovoked rocket potshots for months, just how long were they supposed to sit back and take it before they defended themselves?

The palestinians cant have it all, we all know that, the jews are there and arent going anywhere... the sooner those people come to the same realization and put leaders in charge who recognize it, the sooner they can live in peace.

They dont seem to want peace, it seems if they cant have it all they'd rather fight into eternity.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:30 PM   #92
ForeverChiefs58 ForeverChiefs58 is offline
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[quote=|Zach|;9125863]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverChiefs58 View Post
The media, despite being run and controlled by jews, never calls it what it really is and only reacts negatively against Israel when they respond.
/QUOTE]

Surely someone of middle eastern decent banged your lady. You have the weirdest paranoia filled feelings about Arabs. There must be a reason for it.

From your posting history it looks like you live in constant fear of this stuff.
Nope. I lived in and around the ME and Africa and just have first hand knowledge. If you talk with guys on this board who have been in the ME for a while, they will tell you similar things. It's not paranoia, it is just straight facts.

You go live there, come back and I am sure you would have similar stories and experiences. It is out in the wide open for anyone to see on just about every corner.

Just telling it how it is, I realize if you never get out in the world, it is much easier to just call it fear or paranoia instead of facts, but it still doesn't change things.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:30 PM   #93
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott free View Post
I understand and appreciate those who want to see both sides on this, but its hard to understand the anger toward israel.

They've been taking unprovoked rocket potshots for months, just how long were they supposed to sit back and take it before they defended themselves?
Unprovoked?

I'm no fan of Hamas, but to call these attacks unprovoked is blindness.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:32 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverChiefs58 View Post

Nope. I lived in and around the ME and Africa and just have first hand knowledge. If you talk with guys on this board who have been in the ME for a while, they will tell you similar things. It's not paranoia, it is just straight facts.

You go live there, come back and I am sure you would have similar stories and experiences. It is out in the wide open for anyone to see on just about every corner.

Just telling it how it is, I realize if you never get out in the world, it is much easier to just call it fear or paranoia instead of facts, but it still doesn't change things.
I sort of get a kick out of you living your life scared in your own country.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:35 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Unprovoked?

I'm no fan of Hamas, but to call these attacks unprovoked is blindness.
How did Israel provoke these attacks from Gaza?
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:35 PM   #96
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Israel primed for a ground invasion of Gaza.

One hopes this is quick, and civilian casualties will be minimized.

The last time Israel attempted this kind of mission, they failed. It doesn't seem possible to take out Gaza's capabilities of firing rockets unless you wipe out Gaza.

Unfortunately that's what I'm reading Israel intends to do. Let's hope it's just bravado.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:37 PM   #97
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
How did Israel provoke these attacks from Gaza?
Preemptive theft of land. Rejection of their right to exist as a state (and yes, I see the double standard there). Return violence that Palestinians see as unproportional responses.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:37 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Israel primed for a ground invasion of Gaza.

One hopes this is quick, and civilian casualties will be minimized.

The last time Israel attempted this kind of mission, they failed. It doesn't seem possible to take out Gaza's capabilities of firing rockets unless you wipe out Gaza.

Unfortunately that's what I'm reading Israel intends to do. Let's hope it's just bravado.
In retrospect, Israel never should have made the peace overture of stopping the occupation. What could has it brought?
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:44 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Unprovoked?

I'm no fan of Hamas, but to call these attacks unprovoked is blindness.
Oh I can't wait to hear why you think hundreds of rockets fired at random innocent targets is somehow "provoked".

That word works both ways, and don't be surprised if you don't like the way they fight back.

Which side has constantly rejected statehood and respond with suicide bombings and random targeted attacks? The same palestinians who are willing to kill as many innocents as possible just because of their hatred for jews.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:48 PM   #100
ForeverChiefs58 ForeverChiefs58 is offline
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I sort of get a kick out of you living your life scared in your own country.
Scared? In my own country? I never said that. Where did you get that?

I sort of get a kick out of watching you live your life with your head up your own ignorant ass.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:50 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Preemptive theft of land. Rejection of their right to exist as a state (and yes, I see the double standard there). Return violence that Palestinians see as unproportional responses.
Considering that Israel chose to leave Gaza, I don't see one being relevant today.

Two is silly (as you more or less point out).

Well, they are going up against a more powerful state. It's quite simple: don't attack or paln to attack Israel, and their won't be a response, proportional or otherwise.

What exactly has Hamas done to show that they want peace with Israel?
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:04 PM   #102
ForeverChiefs58 ForeverChiefs58 is offline
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Preemptive theft of land. Rejection of their right to exist as a state (and yes, I see the double standard there). Return violence that Palestinians see as unproportional responses.
Who do you think Israel stole land from? Who do you think occupied the west bank before?

I ask because you realize there was no sovergn nation to steal land from living there at that time? They weren't even the same people. It was Jordan that occupied the west bank, but only so they could destroy Israel easier.


The state that is intended to live there has rejected every offering to help them achieve statehood.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:28 PM   #103
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This is no convincing of Direckshun on this issue....in his view Hamas is completely justified in targeting and launching rockets at women and children.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:48 PM   #104
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I would fully expect Israel will move hard and fast with the maximum impact when they do.
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:04 PM   #105
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