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Old 03-30-2014, 08:03 AM  
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Texas family fights for euthanasia laws after daughter's death

So I am sure it has been discussed before but what is everyone's opinion on laws like this?

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Corpus Christi, Texas (KTVT) A Texas family is fighting to make euthanasia of terminal patients legal in the state. They don't want other families to go through the pain that they have endured.

At 19-months-old, Natalie Newton was a busy, happy toddler. until September, when those busy little feet took her into the family's backyard pool near Corpus Christi. Natty, as the family likes to call her, was revived.

"It was just horrible. blind and deaf and can't move can you imagine?" Her dad said.

After more than an hour without oxygen, doctors determined that she would ultimately not survive.

"You think that dreadful thought: We can't let her live like this, and you can't believe you just thought that," said her dad.

The hospital's ethics committee agreed. The question then became: How, exactly, would natty die?

"They're saying, ok, well, the nutrition and the hydration. 'Well, isn't that starving her to death?'" The father asked them.

Her grandfather, Bradley Newton, says withholding 'nutrition' as it's nicely put was the only option that Texas law allowed.

Over eight and a half long, awful, agonizing days, Natty was starved.

"That's just the most cruel, inhumane thing. We euthanize dogs for humanity reasons, we euthanize serial killers but, a 21-month-old baby has to starve for almost 9 days?" Questions the dad.

Newton says his family has been traumatized by the process and is traveling the state sharing her story in the hope of forcing change, for Natty's sake.



http://www.ketknbc.com/news/texas-fa...aws-after-daug


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Here is a link to a CNN video on it as well. This video is a little graphic due to some of the photos they show in it. You have been warned.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/vi...ight.ktvt.html
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Old 04-01-2014, 01:54 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
...
If someone is of sound mind and wants to kill themselves, than they can do that now, without a prescription. There are plenty of affective (easy and painless) ways with OTC meds, or other methods (carbon monoxide poisoning etc.).
I've had numerous family members work in the healthcare industry over the years and one constant they say about suicide - a lot of people fail at it. And when they do, they are in horrible condition and subjected to long-term medical care with no hope of recovery.

Our society takes such great pains to end the life of criminals convicted of heinous crimes in humane and painless ways, yet we're forced to treat our loved ones like neglected pets. We came up with options for criminals...we can certainly do something similar for the terminally ill.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:03 PM   #77
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Agreed that no provider should be required to do it if they do not want. I'm not certain that literally NO healthcare providers would ever do it. Dr. Kevorkian was willing to risk jail, repeatedly, in order to help people end their suffering.
I dont think that no providers will be willing to participate in Euthanasia, I think it will be few and far between. There are too many logistical hurdles to make it practical in the current medical system.

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A set of behaviors can be interpreted in more than one way. For instance someone might observe a schizophrenic and come to the conclusion that they are possessed by demons. I find that to be a bit goofy, and I find that it is more convenient to use the term "schizophrenic" to describe a pattern of behavior, but as you said it is still subjective.
I've worked as a physician in an institutional psych facility. I've been a part of treatment boards as well as managed care.

Superficially, its easy to make the observation that some schizophrenic patients are no different than many people we interact with in the Bible belt who wouldnt be considered mentally ill. That being said its generally easy to diagnose during the course of an interview and obtaining history.

Anyway, I've shared my thoughts on the subject. Those who are looking for easy answers and easy solutions arent going to find any looking to the government.

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I've had numerous family members work in the healthcare industry over the years and one constant they say about suicide - a lot of people fail at it.
women try more often, while men are more succesful.

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And when they do, they are in horrible condition and subjected to long-term medical care with no hope of recovery.
an extremely high percentage of those persons were not of sound mind when they attempted suicide, might have been attempting suicide under mind altering substances, and likely didnt have a clear plan (the highest indicator of likely suceeding in a suicide attempt). Such persons would be excluded from being a Euthanasia participant by current Oregon law, and competent health practictioners.

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Our society takes such great pains to end the life of criminals convicted of heinous crimes in humane and painless ways, yet we're forced to treat our loved ones like neglected pets. We came up with options for criminals...we can certainly do something similar for the terminally ill.
I dont think physicians administer the medications in corporal punishment, but that isnt my level of expertise. In those cases the state takes the initiative to actively kill the convicted criminal. The state doesnt face any liability from carrying out corporal punishment. The same cant be said for health care providers.

Few health care providers will be willing to participate in euthanasia while following an ethos of "doing no harm."

Last edited by planetdoc; 04-01-2014 at 02:13 PM..
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:17 PM   #78
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I dont think physicians administer the medications in corporal punishment, but that isnt my level of expertise. In those cases the state takes the initiative to actively kill the convicted criminal. The state doesnt face any liability from carrying out corporal punishment. The same cant be said for health care providers.


And yet the law can insulate them from liability, which it should.

Bottom line -- we have better policies for pets when it comes to end of life options than we do for our parents and other people.

"They can commit suicide" is a poor, poor option to present, and may not even be feasible in many circumstances, or may be botched in others, as you indicated.

Bottom line, there is no reason, other than people's misguided over-emphasis on sustaining life at all costs, that we don't have a better policy. While recognizing that no policy can be perfect, or cover all contingencies, our current policy is completely pathetic. Indeed, it is abhorrent and inhumane, in my opinion.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:27 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
And yet the law can insulate them from liability, which it should.
insulate from liability from the euthanasia case, but not insulate from liability from any other patient that dies under a health providers care. Ambulance chasers (attorneys) will line up around the block to talk to the families of patients who died. They will add thoughts to a family members ear that the doctor killed their loved one because they have done it before. Patients will want someone to pay for the loss of their loved one. Like I said, " a walking lawsuit waiting to happen." Why would a insurance company take on that extra level of risk? Why would a managed care facility risk offering that health care provider hospital privelages? Those organizations only care about their bottom line.

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Bottom line -- we have better policies for pets when it comes to end of life options than we do for our parents and other people.
pets are considered property, free to be "put down" at their owner's discretion or if the animal shelter cant get them a home.

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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
"They can commit suicide" is a poor, poor option to present, and may not even be feasible in many circumstances, or may be botched in others, as you indicated.

Bottom line, there is no reason, other than people's misguided over-emphasis on sustaining life at all costs, that we don't have a better policy. While recognizing that no policy can be perfect, or cover all contingencies, our current policy is completely pathetic. Indeed, it is abhorrent and inhumane, in my opinion.
you keep saying, "there is no reason..." I've been giving reasons all through this thread and in this very post which you just gloss over. Your looking for government to provide some easy answer to this problem when their is none.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:35 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
insulate from liability from the euthanasia case, but not insulate from liability from any other patient that dies under a health providers care. Ambulance chasers (attorneys) will line up around the block to talk to the families of patients who died. They will add thoughts to a family members ear that the doctor killed their loved one because they have done it before. Patients will want someone to pay for the loss of their loved one. Like I said, " a walking lawsuit waiting to happen." Why would a insurance company take on that extra level of risk? Why would a managed care facility risk offering that health care provider hospital privelages? Those organizations only care about their bottom line.

Well, doctors are now being allowed to pull the plug over in Holland which is the type of abuse I see leading to this idea that men, usually atheists, think they're actually god by feeling they can take human life by determining according to their standards who is valuable and who is not. Funny, how it comes full circle-->with atheists actually believing in a god afterall.

Such thinking endangers all of us longterm. Does not bode well for the elderly, the infirm or babies born with disabilities.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:40 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by planetdoc View Post
insulate from liability from the euthanasia case, but not insulate from liability from any other patient that dies under a health providers care. Ambulance chasers (attorneys) will line up around the block to talk to the families of patients who died. They will add thoughts to a family members ear that the doctor killed their loved one because they have done it before. Patients will want someone to pay for the loss of their loved one. Like I said, " a walking lawsuit waiting to happen." Why would a insurance company take on that extra level of risk? Why would a managed care facility risk offering that health care provider hospital privelages? Those organizations only care about their bottom line.

I'm not sure what you mean by insulate from the euthenasia case, but not from "any other patient". The law should be broadly written -- if the procedures are follows then there is no liability for the health care providers, or the individuals involved in the decision-making process.

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pets are considered property, free to be "put down" at their owner's discretion or if the animal shelter cant get them a home.
I understand. And while the discretion is broader -- too broad to be applied to people, certainly -- the options are nonetheless infinitely better. The way we treat people at the end, regardless of the wishes of either the patient or their loved ones, is barbaric.

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you keep saying, "there is no reason..." I've been giving reasons all through this thread and in this very post which you just gloss over. Your looking for government to provide some easy answer to this problem when their is none.
There is no reason. You offer excuses and problems, not reasons. The excuses and problems can be overcome. The real reason is that the judeo-christian faith that dominates our society is overly obsessed with maintaining physical life regardless of all else.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:43 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Well, doctors are now being allowed to pull the plug over in Holland which is the type of abuse I see leading to this idea that men, usually atheists, think they're actually god by feeling they can take human life by determining according to their standards who is valuable and who is not. Funny, how it comes full circle-->with atheists actually believing in a god afterall.

Such thinking endangers all of us longterm. Does not bode well for the elderly, the infirm or babies born with disabilities.

Who are you that your wishes should trump the person in question, or their loved ones? What is society that their obsessive focus on maintaining life regardless of all else should force people into pathetic choices, or having no choice, rather than self-determination?
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Old 04-01-2014, 03:43 PM   #83
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that law is unecessary. That law requires the patient to be free of a mental condition impairing judgement (i.e. of sound mind), and have a 15 day waiting period.

If someone is of sound mind and wants to kill themselves, than they can do that now, without a prescription. There are plenty of affective (easy and painless) ways with OTC meds, or other methods (carbon monoxide poisoning etc.).

This law would not have helped Amnorix's father or the little girl in the OP....since neither were of sound mind (as described) or capable of administring the meds themselves. Finally, the Oregon law wouldnt get some health care provider to ADMINISTER the lethal dose for them. Like I said, their is a logistics problem. What insurance is going to offer a health care provider malpractice insurance who participates in euthanasia? what hospital is going to give them hospital privelages? Those health care providers are a walking tort suit waiting to happen.

you dont need a law to give you the right to kill yourself. Its not like they are going to stick your dead corpse in prison for breaking the law.
I said it is a good first step. You could easily amend this law to any person with POV or amend the standard health care directive to allow for euthansia. I imagine many people like my mom would have loved to gathered every one around, say her goodbye and pass on instead of starving herself to death for 6 weeks.
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Old 04-01-2014, 08:19 PM   #84
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If I own myself, then I should have the option to end my own life at a time of my choosing. I do think that there is a right to suicide, especially in cases where someone is terminal. There is no point in eking out a few extra hours or days either in great pain or barely there due to the effects of the disease or from the drugs used to combat the great pain of the disease.

There are a great many options which are painless and quick. For example, carbon monoxide in high concentrations is a quick and painless way to go.

Again, I would want this up to the person themselves either as a living will or with consent if they are mentally sound. The state or hospital should have no right to euthanize someone without their consent.
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Old 04-01-2014, 09:11 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
Who are you that your wishes should trump the person in question, or their loved ones? What is society that their obsessive focus on maintaining life regardless of all else should force people into pathetic choices, or having no choice, rather than self-determination?
I would assume that she's a person who has never had to make that decision based on her rambling, nonsensical post.
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Old 04-01-2014, 09:17 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Well, doctors are now being allowed to pull the plug over in Holland which is the type of abuse I see leading to this idea that men, usually atheists, think they're actually god by feeling they can take human life by determining according to their standards who is valuable and who is not. Funny, how it comes full circle-->with atheists actually believing in a god afterall.

Such thinking endangers all of us longterm. Does not bode well for the elderly, the infirm or babies born with disabilities.
Just to be clear BEP, so you don't think that I am trying to pick on you, this is what I am taking from your post that I find nonsensical:

1) Doctors who practice euthanasia are performing acts of abuse

2) Euthanasia leads atheists (who don't believe in God) to believe that they are God

3) Euthanasia is performed based on a subjective assessment of who is or is not valuable

4) Atheists believe in God

5) The elderly, the infirm or babies born with disabilities are going to be in danger because of 1-4.
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Old 04-01-2014, 09:30 PM   #87
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Just to be clear BEP, so you don't think that I am trying to pick on you, this is what I am taking from your post that I find nonsensical:

1) Doctors who practice euthanasia are performing acts of abuse

2) Euthanasia leads atheists (who don't believe in God) to believe that they are God

3) Euthanasia is performed based on a subjective assessment of who is or is not valuable

4) Atheists believe in God

5) The elderly, the infirm or babies born with disabilities are going to be in danger because of 1-4.
As we accomplish more with genetic based medicine number 5 will become less and less of a concern. Considering we are probably within a couple of decades of perhaps doubling or tripling the natural human lifespan as things like stem cell therapies and genetic medicine become common.

Basically, anything that can happen we will be able to fix.
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Old 04-02-2014, 09:58 AM   #88
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Considering we are probably within a couple of decades of perhaps doubling or tripling the natural human lifespan as things like stem cell therapies and genetic medicine become common.

haha doubt it.

2 points:

1. nature vs nurture. (i.e. even if you can improve genetics environmental factors will still be in play. aka modifiable risk factors)

2. wear & tear. (the longer something is alive, the more at risk of the cumulative affects of damage.) So I would expect to see an increase in cancer as well as dementia with age. some cell lines (such as those in the heart and brain) naturally dont regenerate. your essentially stuck with what you get at birth.
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Old 04-02-2014, 10:35 AM   #89
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Just to be clear BEP, so you don't think that I am trying to pick on you, this is what I am taking from your post that I find nonsensical:

1) Doctors who practice euthanasia are killing someone.

2) Euthanasia leads atheists (who don't believe in God) to believe that they are God

3) Euthanasia is performed based on a subjective assessment of who's life is still worth living or has value.

4) Atheists believe they're God in this case.

5) The elderly, the infirm or babies born with disabilities are already in danger because of 1-4. (Infanticide has been practiced and some advocate it. Doctors decide in Europe who should live or die without consent. Euthanasia being discussed in England to reduce healthcare cases and make hospital beds available. The culture of taking life for reasons of convenience is spreading.That's what happens when individuals decide who can live.)
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Old 04-02-2014, 10:41 AM   #90
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I would assume that she's a person who has never had to make that decision based on her rambling, nonsensical post.
Wrong

Nonsensical to you but not for someone who feels life is sacred and govt's first duty is to protect it.

That's my opinion. Deal with it.
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