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-   -   Better Than Geno (http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=270357)

Direckshun 02-24-2013 02:36 PM

Better Than Geno
 
Making the decision to draft Geno Smith means you probably have to ask yourself two questions.

Initially, we ask ourselves whether Geno Smith is the best player in this draft.

If you believe that he is, that's on you and the Yellow Submarine you came in on.

For the rest of us (which I think has to be the vast majority), the answer's no.

So the two step question:

1. Which players are better than Geno Smith in this draft?

and

2. Are you comfortable passing over them for Geno Smith?

Now, to me, this is the comprehensive list of players I think are better than Geno, everything being equal (including positional value):

1. OT Luke Joeckel, Texas A&M
2. DE/OLB Bjoern Werner, Florida State
3. DE/OLB Damontre Moore, Texas A&M
4. DE/DT Sheldon Richardson, Missouri
5. DT Star Lotulelei, Utah
6. OT Eric Fisher, Central Michigan
7. CB DeMarcus Milliner, Alabama
8. OT Lane Johnson, Oklahoma
9. DT Johnathan Hankins, Ohio State
10. OG Chance Warmack, Alabama
11. CB Johnathan Banks, Mississippi State
12. DE/OLB Dion Jordan, Oregon
13. S Kenny Vaccaro, Texas

(Incidentally, of course, that's my big board.)

Are you comfortable passing over this much talent for Geno Smith? Any one player on this list could be a Chief. There is no obstruction between them and our roster.

I think that's a tall order for Geno to have to overcome. The argument of reaching for a QB over Hankins and Lane Johnson is tough enough. You're also asking the Chiefs ignore the very best this year has to offer in elite talent like Joeckel and Lotulelei (and players who are likely to end up as choice favorites of any number of coaches, like Sheldon Richardson).

KCrockaholic 02-24-2013 02:41 PM

I don't make my top 100 until after the combine but right now I can say these guys have fewer flaws than Geno.

Joeckel
Warmack
Fisher
Lotulelei
Werner

And that's about it.

And no I wouldn't take any of them before Geno.

O.city 02-24-2013 02:41 PM

I would, based on the fact that if we do in fact re sign Albert, the only guys on that list who would be immediate starters would be the DT's, OG's, and S's. I'm not taking a guy at one who isn't going to start immediately, so thats out.

I'm not taking a guard at 1. Thats crazy talk.

I might think about a DL, but TBH, given our draft history which shouldnt matter but to me it does, I'm taking a QB and taking my chances.

Add to that, based on his combine today, I think Geno has shown that he's alot more athletic than I was giving him credit for, which leads to alot of optimism on what he can do.

If we have Albert back and Joeckel is your BPA you taking him?

Reaper16 02-24-2013 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 9432702)
Making the decision to draft Geno Smith means you probably have to ask yourself two questions.

Initially, we ask ourselves whether Geno Smith is the best player in this draft.

If you believe that he is, that's on you and the Yellow Submarine you came in on.

For the rest of us (which I think has to be the vast majority), the answer's no.

So the two step question:

1. Which players are better than Geno Smith in this draft?

and

2. Are you comfortable passing over them for Geno Smith?

Now, to me, this is the comprehensive list of players I think are better than Geno, everything being equal (including positional value):

1. OT Luke Joeckel, Texas A&M
2. DE/OLB Bjoern Werner, Florida State
3. DE/OLB Damontre Moore, Texas A&M
4. DE/DT Sheldon Richardson, Missouri
5. DT Star Lotulelei, Utah
6. OT Eric Fisher, Central Michigan
7. CB DeMarcus Milliner, Alabama
8. OT Lane Johnson, Oklahoma
9. DT Johnathan Hankins, Ohio State
10. OG Chance Warmack, Alabama
11. CB Johnathan Banks, Mississippi State
12. DE/OLB Dion Jordan, Oregon
13. S Kenny Vaccaro, Texas

(Incidentally, of course, that's my big board.)

Are you comfortable passing over this much talent for Geno Smith? Any one player on this list could be a Chief. There is no obstruction between them and our roster.

I think that's a tall order for Geno to have to overcome. The argument of reaching for a QB over Hankins and Lane Johnson is tough enough. You're also asking the Chiefs ignore the very best this year has to offer in elite talent like Joeckel and Lotulelei (and players who are likely to end up as choice favorites of any number of coaches, like Sheldon Richardson).

I think that Geno is better than every single one of those guys. Well, I think that Warmack might just be a better guard than Geno is a quarterback, but I take the QB there 100% of the time over a guard.

Direckshun 02-24-2013 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 9432741)
If we have Albert back and Joeckel is your BPA you taking him?

I probably don't, no. Albert's my LT in your scenerio, and I'm giving Winston another season (and I'm not drafting a RT #1 overall anyway).

But you're right, that would narrow it down to a defensive lineman. Either a passrusher (which I would totally take, even with Hali/Houston), or a defensive lineman who can turn this whole party around with Poe and Jackson.

I like the team chasing after Chris Canty but we don't know where he'll go. And I love, love, love Sheldon Richardson.

In your hypothetical, I'm still reaching for Geno over at least five DL guys I think are superior -- and in some cases, far superior.

the Talking Can 02-24-2013 02:46 PM

it's the easiest decision in the history of decisions

none of those players are the best at their position to come out in the last 5 years...they're actually NOT special...

ok, maybe warmack...but so ****ing what?

we've been down this road for 30 years...it leads nowhere...you're really just saying 'too risky'

Bowser 02-24-2013 02:47 PM

Yeah, you take Geno over every single one of thsoe guys.

Which of the guys you listed will impact a team more than Geno Smith.

Or, look at it this way - Combine all the Super Bowl rings of Anthony Munoz, Tony Boselli, Willie Roaf, and Will Shields. Not exactly game changers, even if they were the very best at their positions.

Direckshun 02-24-2013 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Talking Can (Post 9432770)
you're really just saying 'too risky'

I'm saying "not remotely max value."

In my (read: Kansas City's) desperation for a QB, we can't simply choose for Geno to be the best player in this draft.

SNR 02-24-2013 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 9432702)

Now, to me, this is the comprehensive list of players I think are better than Geno, everything being equal (including positional value):

It's not equal. That's the problem.

You have a list of 13 players there. How many of them are generational talents like Eric Berry, Von Miller, or Calvin Johnson? If you're a team drafting at #1 overall and don't have a QB, the only remotely conceivable reason to pass on a QB is if everyone in the class is an abortion and you have a generational type of talent that ACTUALLY makes your team better.

Offensive linemen don't make our team better. In fact, I can argue that it will make our team WORSE at the beginning. Joeckel and Fisher are rookie LTs, who are going to be compared to a LT who gave up one sack all season long. That's a tall order to ask out of a rookie.

There isn't even a Mario Williams at the other position. There's no Ndamukong Suh. There's no beast that explodes off the film. Just a bunch of flaccid dicks that would normally get drafted between 5-20 in a draft class that had generational talents and QBs that everybody liked.

You can hate on the QBs in this class, but don't ****ing tell me any of those 13 players you listed are "must haves". That's what you need if you're drafting at #1 overall. So if you can't get one, roll the dice on the best QB available.

And from that point it becomes a debate about what Geno lacks in a #1 QB and if he can be coached up to improve on it to the necessary level. And I think with a guy like Andy Reid, yes, he absolutely CAN do that.

Reaper16 02-24-2013 02:49 PM

Those DL you like so much? I don't see any separation from Geno in terms of prospect potential or viability. Perhaps a guy like Star has a higher floor, but I'm not even sure about that. Drafting DL in the top 5 seems like its been riskier than drafting QB.

O.city 02-24-2013 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 9432765)
I probably don't, no. Albert's my LT in your scenerio, and I'm giving Winston another season (and I'm not drafting a RT #1 overall anyway).

But you're right, that would narrow it down to a defensive lineman. Either a passrusher (which I would totally take, even with Hali/Houston), or a defensive lineman who can turn this whole party around with Poe and Jackson.

I like the team chasing after Chris Canty but we don't know where he'll go. And I love, love, love Sheldon Richardson.

In your hypothetical, I'm still reaching for Geno over at least five DL guys I think are superior -- and in some cases, far superior.

In a different situation at QB, I'd be fine with taking another pass rusher. But as much as we don't think so, there is probably some business side to this decision. Taking a guy first overall, who isn't an everydown difference maker, isn't going to be met with alot of joy.

With Richardsons background I have a really hard time taking him at 1.

I'd also say, when you add positional value to some of these guys, I think that makes a better case for a QB.

Personally, I think you have some of your DL guys too high, as well as Milliner and Banks. I'm not taking a CB at 1, when I can get one at 34 who has equal skill.

I think the combine showed, along with what pro days will show, that there is a significant gap between the top QB maybe 2 depending on Barkley, and the rest of the crop.

the Talking Can 02-24-2013 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 9432777)
I'm saying "not remotely max value."

In my (read: Kansas City's) desperation for a QB, we can't simply choose for Geno to be the best player in this draft.

yes, we 'risk' losing some mythological 'value'

'value' doesn't win games...QBs do

Direckshun 02-24-2013 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNR (Post 9432784)
It's not equal. That's the problem.

You have a list of 13 players there. How many of them are generational talents like Eric Berry, Von Miller, or Calvin Johnson?

I would say Joeckel, who has the ability to be a 12-year Pro Bowler. And I think Moore has potential to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNR (Post 9432784)
If you're a team drafting at #1 overall and don't have a QB, the only remotely conceivable reason to pass on a QB is if everyone in the class is an abortion and you have a generational type of talent that ACTUALLY makes your team better.

Offensive linemen don't make our team better. In fact, I can argue that it will make our team WORSE at the beginning. Joeckel and Fisher are rookie LTs, who are going to be compared to a LT who gave up one sack all season long. That's a tall order to ask out of a rookie.

All 100% fair points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNR (Post 9432784)
There isn't even a Mario Williams at the other position. There's no Ndamukong Suh. There's no beast that explodes off the film. Just a bunch of flaccid dicks that would normally get drafted between 5-20 in a draft class that had generational talents and QBs that everybody liked.

To risk sounding like an internet meme, generational talents are generational.

Half of the drafts in our lifetime don't have them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNR (Post 9432784)
You can hate on the QBs in this class, but don't ****ing tell me any of those 13 players you listed are "must haves".

I would say there's three -- Joeckel, Werner and Moore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNR (Post 9432784)
And from that point it becomes a debate about what Geno lacks in a #1 QB and if he can be coached up to improve on it to the necessary level. And I think with a guy like Andy Reid, yes, he absolutely CAN do that.

Fair point.

O.city 02-24-2013 02:54 PM

And I just don't think Werner fits out defense. I don't like him standing up at OLB. IMO, he's a 43 DE.


Joeckel is losing ground to Fisher, who I would actually rather us take at 1 if we are taking a LT.

Direckshun 02-24-2013 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper16 (Post 9432785)
Those DL you like so much? I don't see any separation from Geno in terms of prospect potential or viability. Perhaps a guy like Star has a higher floor, but I'm not even sure about that. Drafting DL in the top 5 seems like its been riskier than drafting QB.

All players are risks in some form, and honestly if he's that big of a risk, he's not on my Top 15. I usually don't like boom/bust players as much as I do high-floor guys. Which puts me at odds with much of ChiefsPlanet, but my preferences are my preferences.

I'm just saying, all things being equal, most of us would probably take JJ Watt over Donovan McNabb. I may be wrong about that, but I think the board is skewed this year because of how insanely starving we've been for a franchise QB. But that doesn't noodle with my calculations as much as it does other folks here.

I do not see a Super Bowl winner in Geno Smith. I do see a world class bully of offensive lines in a few defensive players.


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