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Ace Gunner 04-06-2013 10:02 PM

LT: Left behind
 

Left behind
In today's pass-happy NFL, the image of the left tackle is taking a beating

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2013/0401...as01jr_576.jpg
Since Cleveland drafted Joe Thomas in 2007, its scoring offense has ranked above 24th only once.



IN APRIL 2008, the Dolphins were so eager to make Michigan left tackle Jake Long the No. 1 pick overall and the cornerstone of their franchise that they signed him to a $57.5 million contract four days before the draft. Long more than lived up to that deal, becoming only the fourth tackle in 50 years to make the Pro Bowl in each of his first four seasons -- before a triceps injury sent him to injured reserve last December.

Yet almost five years after the '08 draft, the Dolphins let Long -- who at 27 is entering his prime -- hit the open market without even offering him his $15.4 million franchise tag salary. Long ultimately became the 11th free agent offensive tackle to sign this offseason, inking a four-year deal with the Rams that could be worth as much as $36 million. But the contract came after he lingered on the market for a week, with his old team as the only other real suitor.

So why the dramatic drop in urgency and currency for such a productive player? Actually, it's not Long who has lost so much value -- it's his position. The left tackle, once considered an essential building block for every franchise, has seen its importance erode in this era of read-option spread offenses. That's something NFL teams with high draft picks need to consider on April 25, when two left tackles, Texas A&M's Luke Joeckel and Central Michigan's Eric Fisher, are expected to be top-five picks.

Times have changed dramatically since 2006, when the Ravens' Michael Oher was the inspiration for The Blind Side. That best-selling book and eventual blockbuster movie helped mythologize the left tackle's role in protecting the quarterback's back. But in '06, the ideal QB still stood in the pocket and worked through his progressions before delivering the ball downfield. Today, QB drops are shorter, the ball comes out quicker, the passers are far more elusive and the pressure is coming from all over, not just the right defensive end. As a result, Oher doesn't even protect the blind side anymore. In Super Bowl XLVII, he started at right tackle.

Who would have ever predicted that when the Ravens made Oher their first-round pick in 2009? "If there's a great left tackle available, sure, people are still gonna take him," says Phil Savage, executive director of the Senior Bowl and former GM of the Browns. "But I absolutely think you're going to see more and more people rethink the idea of the left tackle as this top-notch, highest-paid, building block kind of player."

Savage's reversal on the position is telling. In 1996 he was the director of player personnel in Baltimore when the Ravens drafted left tackle Jonathan Ogden with the fourth pick overall. In 2007, while running the Browns' draft, Savage selected LT Joe Thomas third overall. It's hard to dispute the impact of either guy; Ogden, in fact, was just elected to the Hall of Fame. But there's no disputing this either: Of the 12 left tackles drafted in the top 10 since 2004 -- at a collective price of more than $500 million -- only three have a postseason victory, and not one has an NFL title to his credit (Ogden won a ring in 2000). And although Thomas and Long have been to 10 Pro Bowls between them, neither has won even a single playoff game.

Consider this also: In the first round of the 2007 draft, Savage bypassed Adrian Peterson, who last year had one of the greatest seasons by a running back in NFL history. To take Long in 2008, Miami passed over QB Matt Ryan, who has led the Falcons to the playoffs four times and took them to last season's NFC championship game. "I do not regret taking Jake Long," former Dolphins executive Bill Parcells told ESPN.com in April 2011. "But you always wonder if you should have taken a quarterback."

For decades, old-school thinkers like Parcells and former Colts president Bill Polian considered quarterback, left tackle and pass rusher to be the "holy trinity" of team building. Now the argument can be made that the correlation between victories and elite left tackles no longer exists. "When coaches talk about position hierarchy, left tackle isn't among the top few anymore," an AFC team exec says. "Now it's QB, pass rusher, cornerback, wide receiver. A guy like Joe Thomas shows that a great left tackle isn't nearly sufficient."

Nor is he necessary. After all, Eli Manning won two Super Bowl MVPs with former fifth-round pick and converted guard David Diehl protecting his backside. Aaron Rodgers sets up behind fifth-round pick Marshall Newhouse. And who can name Tom Brady's left tackle? How about Peyton Manning's? Considering that those two legendary QBs had the quickest releases in the league last season -- 3.03 and 3.04 seconds, compared with the league average of 3.46 -- do the names really matter? Linemen simply don't have to hold their blocks as long as they used to.

Meanwhile, to counter quick-strike passing attacks, defenses like the Giants' and Ravens' have started to take a shorter, more direct path to the quarterback by overloading pressure up the middle, which places more value on guards and centers. That's why Alabama's Chance Warmack could become just the seventh guard taken in the top 10 of the draft since 1988. And because running backs and especially tight ends are too valuable in the passing game to stay in and block -- catches by tight ends are up 16 percent since 2008 -- even the right tackle position is on the rise.

In the end, the importance of protecting the quarterback hasn't diminished; it's just that the responsibility and rewards are now more evenly distributed across all five O-linemen. "It used to be you found a great left tackle and built the rest of it from there," Savage says. "Now, because of defenses, you'd better be solid across the entire line. Instead of the super-elite left tackle, it's about five men who block well in a system. You could write a whole book about how the spread offense has impacted the NFL game."

In that book, the chapter about left tackles could be titled Blindsided.


http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/91...-espn-magazine

Hammock Parties 04-06-2013 10:03 PM

**** left tackles.

Ace Gunner 04-06-2013 10:04 PM

Welp.

WhitiE 04-06-2013 10:09 PM

Jordan?

TribalElder 04-06-2013 10:26 PM

Moar Geno hope

Deberg_1990 04-06-2013 10:27 PM

Joeckel, Joeckel Joeckel!

penbrook 04-06-2013 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990 (Post 9563458)
Joeckel, Joeckel Joeckel!

Geno Geno Geno!!

milkman 04-06-2013 10:31 PM

This article just reinforces what some of us have been saying for some time now.

penbrook 04-06-2013 10:35 PM

Jimmy Johnson said he would always value a average qb more than a Elite tackle because QBs win games and have the most impact as to a Tackle.

Sweet Daddy Hate 04-06-2013 10:36 PM

Initially, I thought this thread was about Ladanian Tomlinson and the Rapture of the Church...
Posted via Mobile Device

Deberg_1990 04-06-2013 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penbook (Post 9563479)
Jimmy Johnson said he would always value a average qb more than a Elite tackle because QBs win games and have the most impact as to a Tackle.

A lot of us have always said a B QB is greater than an A LT any day.

penbrook 04-06-2013 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990 (Post 9563488)
A lot of us have always said a B QB is greater than an A LT any day.

And im sure Reid and Dorsey will see it that way.

ChiefMojo 04-06-2013 10:40 PM

Doesn't mean squat for Geno in our situation, it means that Dion Jordan could be the guy.

penbrook 04-06-2013 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefMojo (Post 9563497)
Doesn't mean squat for Geno in our situation, it means that Dion Jordan could be the guy.

Did you not read the article that Albert Breer had reported on Dorseys situation. Dorsey in there basically said it will be a offensive player who learn difficult and complex schemes.

MeatRock 04-06-2013 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penbook (Post 9563508)
Did you not read the article that Albert Breer had reported on Dorseys situation. Dorsey in there basically said it will be a offensive player who learn difficult and complex schemes.

You read way too much into shit. JFC :shake:

penbrook 04-06-2013 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeatRock (Post 9563515)
You read way too much into shit. JFC :shake:

Those words came from Dorseys mouth. He hasnt lied to us yet.

Saccopoo 04-06-2013 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefMojo (Post 9563497)
Doesn't mean squat for Geno in our situation, it means that Dion Jordan could be the guy.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that converted wide receiver who's only real skill at this point is covering college tight ends.

Super duper.

MeatRock 04-06-2013 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penbook (Post 9563520)
Those words came from Dorseys mouth. He hasnt lied to us yet.

It doesn't rule out anything. Like i said :shake:

penbrook 04-06-2013 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeatRock (Post 9563530)
It doesn't rule out anything. Like i said :shake:

True. Im just tired of 99% of the people in America mocking Joeckel to us.

Sweet Daddy Hate 04-06-2013 11:15 PM

If the Chiefs one day decided to only aquire linemen through FA, would Mayock, Kiper, McShay and all of truefannery spontaneously combust? This is an experiment I can get behind.
Posted via Mobile Device

penbrook 04-06-2013 11:18 PM

Kiper has Geno going to the Eagles. Am I missing anything?

Vick was the most sacked qb.

They need a o line bsd not us. We were ranked 13 and should be ranked top 10 with good qbs.

tk13 04-06-2013 11:19 PM

The Ravens started 1st rounders at both tackle positions and a 5th and 7th rounder at CB. No way on earth would I rate CB ahead of LT. That exec is crazy. Although I agree if the game continues to develop into college spread football that may change. But still, the NFL has neutered the Ty Laws of the world just as much as the Jake Longs.

Sweet Daddy Hate 04-06-2013 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penbook (Post 9563584)
Kiper has Geno going to the Eagles. Am I missing anything?

Vick was the most sacked qb.

They need a o line bsd not us. We were ranked 13 and should be ranked top 10 with good qbs.

Their line was shit last year. Jokel to Philly FTW.
Posted via Mobile Device

tk13 04-06-2013 11:23 PM

And also, Peyton Manning's only Super Bowl win was with Tarik Glenn, a 1st round pick, at LT.

Sweet Daddy Hate 04-06-2013 11:26 PM

Payton doesn't need linemen. He just uses his big, orb-head megatron brain-waves to keep defenders at bay/Hootie
Posted via Mobile Device

tk13 04-06-2013 11:28 PM

Also Rodgers won a Super Bowl with Chad Clifton, a 2nd round pick at LT... and Bryan Bulaga, a 1st round pick at RT. They've been whipped right out of the playoffs the last couple years.

milkman 04-06-2013 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 9563612)
Also Rodgers won a Super Bowl with Chad Clifton, a 2nd round pick at LT... and Bryan Bulaga, a 1st round pick at RT. They've been whipped right out of the playoffs the last couple years.

That O-Line was just about as bad as any in the league.

He raised his game to a level in that playoff run that we have rarely seen.

He is the best QB in the game, and you know that as long as he's on the field, you have a chance.

Setsuna 04-06-2013 11:39 PM

The Alex Smith trade contradicts the words out of Dorsey's mouth. That trade negates any hope you ever had. Accept it and despair.

tk13 04-06-2013 11:39 PM

I agree. I think Rodgers play from the beginning of that playoff run to the end of the 15-1 regular season the next year is literally the best any QB has played the last 25 years or so, maybe longer. I said that multiple times, and I really mean that. Just unstoppable... which is why some of the comments on here about how Wilson and Kaepernick, etc, etc are HOF'ers playing better than anyone are crazy. They haven't even provided the best QB play of this decade to this point.

And why I think comparing any QB to Aaron Rodgers is a bad idea.

penbrook 04-06-2013 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Setsuna (Post 9563636)
The Alex Smith trade contradicts the words out of Dorsey's mouth. That trade negates any hope you ever had. Accept it and despair.

Who says Geno would be starting. You sit him and groom him until you feel like Geno is ready.

He did it with Rodgers already. Whats to say he wont do the same to Geno.

milkman 04-07-2013 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 9563640)
I agree. I think Rodgers play from the beginning of that playoff run to the end of the 15-1 regular season the next year is literally the best any QB has played the last 25 years or so, maybe longer. I said that multiple times, and I really mean that. Just unstoppable... which is why some of the comments on here about how Wilson and Kaepernick, etc, etc are HOF'ers playing better than anyone are crazy. They haven't even provided the best QB play of this decade to this point.

And why I think comparing any QB to Aaron Rodgers is a bad idea.

Comparing one player to another is not suggesting that player is the same player, or that he will ever play to the level that the player has achieved.

But you can watch a player and see similarities in their game.

It's stupid to dismiss comparisons.

I can watch Reggie Bush even today and see the valid comparison of his style to Gale Sayers.

Anyone that would suggest that comparison is even remotely suggesting their production is similar is a moron that can't draw a distinction.

Dayze 04-07-2013 12:47 AM

**** that noise / archaic chiefs philosophy

Direckshun 04-07-2013 06:57 AM

Excellent piece.

I still disagree, however.

Mr_Tomahawk 04-07-2013 07:13 AM

Eh, we are still taking a LT #1 overall...

BlackHelicopters 04-07-2013 07:15 AM

Lawrence Taylor wasn't raptured out? Shocking.

Ace Gunner 04-07-2013 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 9563824)
Excellent piece.

I still disagree, however.

explain please.

Direckshun 04-07-2013 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzz_TinBalls (Post 9563851)
explain please.

You have to be able to counter whatever a defense brings, and the best defenses always have a guy of amazing athleticism and strength, that demands you need to be able to neutralize that power.

I'm of the opinion and the tackle positions are incredibly important. I think the Chiefs should have kept both Albert and Winston.

BlackHelicopters 04-07-2013 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 9563854)
You have to be able to counter whatever a defense brings, and the best defenses always have a guy of amazing athleticism and strength, that demands you need to be able to neutralize that power.

I'm of the opinion and the tackle positions are incredibly important. I think the Chiefs should have kept both Albert and Winston.

Truer words were never spoken.

AdumbGuy 04-07-2013 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefMojo (Post 9563497)
Doesn't mean squat for Geno in our situation, it means that Dion Jordan could be the guy.

clearly just means we're going to be yelling out CHANCE every play next year.

Way to interior block there, you chance warmack beast you!

You just got chanced, Broncos! /goddamned asshole mayock.

LoneWolf 04-07-2013 07:25 AM

Both Super Bowl teams had 1st round starting LTs. Manning had a first round LT. The Patriots have a 2nd round and 1st rounder as their starting tackles. Seattle has Okung at tackle.

I'm not advocating taking Joeckel or Fisher, but this article while having some good points isn't being completely honest. Using Long and Thomas as examples is deceiving. They both have never had a good or even average QB playing behind them. And then using Matt Ryan as the example of a QB being successful in the playoffs without an upper echelon LT is hilarious. The one playoff win Matt Ryan whose team has repeatedly been upset in the playoffs?! Typical ESPN lazy reporting.

Ace Gunner 04-07-2013 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 9563854)
You have to be able to counter whatever a defense brings, and the best defenses always have a guy of amazing athleticism and strength, that demands you need to be able to neutralize that power.

I'm of the opinion and the tackle positions are incredibly important. I think the Chiefs should have kept both Albert and Winston.

I do also, but I don't think either player has the talent of Joeckel/Fisher and I am in the group saying LT is no longer an elite position for NFL teams.

Albert has a lot of technique to learn and I believe he can learn to become a solid LT, but he burned bridges imo.

So, moving forward, I would look at Kyle Long, Dave Quessenberry or Jordan Mills -- guys that might be available in the top of the 3rd rnd and go ahead and invest in Geno Smith up top for the future.

Ace Gunner 04-07-2013 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneWolf (Post 9563861)
Both Super Bowl teams had 1st round starting LTs. Manning had a first round LT. The Patriots have a 2nd round and 1st rounder as their starting tackles. Seattle has Okung at tackle.

I'm not advocating taking Joeckel or Fisher, but this article while having some good points isn't being completely honest. Using Long and Thomas as examples is deceiving. They both have never had a good or even average QB playing behind them. And then using Matt Ryan as the example of a QB being successful in the playoffs without an upper echelon LT is hilarious. The one playoff win Matt Ryan whose team has repeatedly been upset in the playoffs?! Typical ESPN lazy reporting.

ATL LT Clabo is FA, maybe they can sign him. I just think this article further explains what is happening to the NFL in terms of positional impact.

Dave Lane 04-07-2013 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deberg_1990 (Post 9563488)
A lot of us have always said a B QB is greater than an A LT any day.

No shit the days of a game manager QB are.... Oh wait....

OrtonsPiercedTaint 04-07-2013 07:52 AM

The Chiefs are finally in a postion to draft a franchise left tackle. Only to have the game evlove the postion to neanderthal footing. ****ing Chiefs' luck.

Dave Lane 04-07-2013 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneWolf (Post 9563861)
Both Super Bowl teams had 1st round starting LTs. Manning had a first round LT. The Patriots have a 2nd round and 1st rounder as their starting tackles. Seattle has Okung at tackle.

I'm not advocating taking Joeckel or Fisher, but this article while having some good points isn't being completely honest. Using Long and Thomas as examples is deceiving. They both have never had a good or even average QB playing behind them. And then using Matt Ryan as the example of a QB being successful in the playoffs without an upper echelon LT is hilarious. The one playoff win Matt Ryan whose team has repeatedly been upset in the playoffs?! Typical ESPN lazy reporting.

I think the point is an illustration that a left tackle by themselves will not take your team to the playoffs. You need the quarterback, then if you have a left tackle that is good he can make a difference.

LoneWolf 04-07-2013 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Lane (Post 9563883)
I think the point is the illustration is that a left tackle by themselves will not make your team go to the playoffs. You need the quarterback then if you have a left tackle that is good he can make a difference.

I don't think anyone in history has ever argued that a LT could by themselves elevate a team to the playoffs. In my opinion a QB without a good LT is like a carpenter without a hammer. His job is much more difficult and the quality will not be great. On the other hand, a good LT is like a hammer without a carpenter.

Ace Gunner 04-07-2013 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Lane (Post 9563883)
I think the point is the illustration is that a left tackle by themselves will not make your team go to the playoffs. You need the quarterback then if you have a left tackle that is good he can make a difference.

did you read this or are you drunk.

Saccopoo 04-07-2013 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direckshun (Post 9563854)
You have to be able to counter whatever a defense brings, and the best defenses always have a guy of amazing athleticism and strength, that demands you need to be able to neutralize that power.

I'm of the opinion and the tackle positions are incredibly important. I think the Chiefs should have kept both Albert and Winston.

IMO, if Don Stephenson stayed in school for his senior season, he would be in the conversation for the first offensive tackle being selected this year. The guy is extremely athletic, has excellent feet and is prototype in terms of size.

Combine numbers for Big Don:

6'6"
312 lbs.
34 1/2" arms

40 yard: 4.94
Vertical: 35.5"
Broad: 114"

Those are absolutely ridiculous speed/burst numbers for a guy of that size.

The guy only needed another year of weight room time to build his strength up to the frame, which he's done with the Chiefs.

Personally, I thought it was a pick of the same level of Jamaal Charles when he came out early and we got him with a third. I said it when we drafted him, that if he (Charles) stayed in school, he would have had a legit shot at the Heisman and it was the steal of the draft. In fact, this (Stephenson) is the guy that Pissholi is going to hang his hat on for future jobs IMO. (Along with Houston.)

Stephenson is going to blow up this year. Book it.

redsurfer11 04-07-2013 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzz_TinBalls (Post 9563399)

Left behind
In today's pass-happy NFL, the image of the left tackle is taking a beating

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2013/0401...as01jr_576.jpg
Since Cleveland drafted Joe Thomas in 2007, its scoring offense has ranked above 24th only once.



IN APRIL 2008, the Dolphins were so eager to make Michigan left tackle Jake Long the No. 1 pick overall and the cornerstone of their franchise that they signed him to a $57.5 million contract four days before the draft. Long more than lived up to that deal, becoming only the fourth tackle in 50 years to make the Pro Bowl in each of his first four seasons -- before a triceps injury sent him to injured reserve last December.

Yet almost five years after the '08 draft, the Dolphins let Long -- who at 27 is entering his prime -- hit the open market without even offering him his $15.4 million franchise tag salary. Long ultimately became the 11th free agent offensive tackle to sign this offseason, inking a four-year deal with the Rams that could be worth as much as $36 million. But the contract came after he lingered on the market for a week, with his old team as the only other real suitor.

So why the dramatic drop in urgency and currency for such a productive player? Actually, it's not Long who has lost so much value -- it's his position. The left tackle, once considered an essential building block for every franchise, has seen its importance erode in this era of read-option spread offenses. That's something NFL teams with high draft picks need to consider on April 25, when two left tackles, Texas A&M's Luke Joeckel and Central Michigan's Eric Fisher, are expected to be top-five picks.

Times have changed dramatically since 2006, when the Ravens' Michael Oher was the inspiration for The Blind Side. That best-selling book and eventual blockbuster movie helped mythologize the left tackle's role in protecting the quarterback's back. But in '06, the ideal QB still stood in the pocket and worked through his progressions before delivering the ball downfield. Today, QB drops are shorter, the ball comes out quicker, the passers are far more elusive and the pressure is coming from all over, not just the right defensive end. As a result, Oher doesn't even protect the blind side anymore. In Super Bowl XLVII, he started at right tackle.

Who would have ever predicted that when the Ravens made Oher their first-round pick in 2009? "If there's a great left tackle available, sure, people are still gonna take him," says Phil Savage, executive director of the Senior Bowl and former GM of the Browns. "But I absolutely think you're going to see more and more people rethink the idea of the left tackle as this top-notch, highest-paid, building block kind of player."

Savage's reversal on the position is telling. In 1996 he was the director of player personnel in Baltimore when the Ravens drafted left tackle Jonathan Ogden with the fourth pick overall. In 2007, while running the Browns' draft, Savage selected LT Joe Thomas third overall. It's hard to dispute the impact of either guy; Ogden, in fact, was just elected to the Hall of Fame. But there's no disputing this either: Of the 12 left tackles drafted in the top 10 since 2004 -- at a collective price of more than $500 million -- only three have a postseason victory, and not one has an NFL title to his credit (Ogden won a ring in 2000). And although Thomas and Long have been to 10 Pro Bowls between them, neither has won even a single playoff game.

Consider this also: In the first round of the 2007 draft, Savage bypassed Adrian Peterson, who last year had one of the greatest seasons by a running back in NFL history. To take Long in 2008, Miami passed over QB Matt Ryan, who has led the Falcons to the playoffs four times and took them to last season's NFC championship game. "I do not regret taking Jake Long," former Dolphins executive Bill Parcells told ESPN.com in April 2011. "But you always wonder if you should have taken a quarterback."

For decades, old-school thinkers like Parcells and former Colts president Bill Polian considered quarterback, left tackle and pass rusher to be the "holy trinity" of team building. Now the argument can be made that the correlation between victories and elite left tackles no longer exists. "When coaches talk about position hierarchy, left tackle isn't among the top few anymore," an AFC team exec says. "Now it's QB, pass rusher, cornerback, wide receiver. A guy like Joe Thomas shows that a great left tackle isn't nearly sufficient."

Nor is he necessary. After all, Eli Manning won two Super Bowl MVPs with former fifth-round pick and converted guard David Diehl protecting his backside. Aaron Rodgers sets up behind fifth-round pick Marshall Newhouse. And who can name Tom Brady's left tackle? How about Peyton Manning's? Considering that those two legendary QBs had the quickest releases in the league last season -- 3.03 and 3.04 seconds, compared with the league average of 3.46 -- do the names really matter? Linemen simply don't have to hold their blocks as long as they used to.

Meanwhile, to counter quick-strike passing attacks, defenses like the Giants' and Ravens' have started to take a shorter, more direct path to the quarterback by overloading pressure up the middle, which places more value on guards and centers. That's why Alabama's Chance Warmack could become just the seventh guard taken in the top 10 of the draft since 1988. And because running backs and especially tight ends are too valuable in the passing game to stay in and block -- catches by tight ends are up 16 percent since 2008 -- even the right tackle position is on the rise.

In the end, the importance of protecting the quarterback hasn't diminished; it's just that the responsibility and rewards are now more evenly distributed across all five O-linemen. "It used to be you found a great left tackle and built the rest of it from there," Savage says. "Now, because of defenses, you'd better be solid across the entire line. Instead of the super-elite left tackle, it's about five men who block well in a system. You could write a whole book about how the spread offense has impacted the NFL game."

In that book, the chapter about left tackles could be titled Blindsided.


http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/91...-espn-magazine


This article is complete BS. The Ravens were having O-line problems. When McKenzie came on board, Oher volunteered to move to right. Oher spent his rookie year at right tackle. The move made Flacco a better QB. In the same division as Von Miller, I'll take the bookend tackles.

Ace Gunner 04-07-2013 09:01 AM

"When coaches talk about position hierarchy, left tackle isn't among the top few anymore," an AFC team exec says. "Now it's QB, pass rusher, cornerback, wide receiver."

the point in this article is that the "trifecta" is void and the LT isn't even part of the equation anymore.

Saccopoo 04-07-2013 09:12 AM

In fact, in considering Direckshun's yearning for Winston, I think that Jeff Allen has the potential to be a solid right tackle in the league. He's solid on pass protection and does a nice job of keeping his guy in front of him. Redardless of what Crennel/Pissholi thought, he's not a guard and has played both tackle positions in college at a high level.

He doesn't have Stephenson's length or athleticism, but he's fundamentally sound with good feet, has functional strength and will keep his defender in front of him. That's what you want out of a right tackle in this day and age.

Personally, I think drafting an offensive tackle early is a bit redundant at this point. They'll definitely take one in the draft (as well as an interior guy), but one early after drafting both Stephenson and Allen in the third and second rounds last year would be somewhat irresponsible.

Dream scenario would be Barrett Jones at the top of the third.

LoneWolf 04-07-2013 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzz_TinBalls (Post 9563955)
"When coaches talk about position hierarchy, left tackle isn't among the top few anymore," an AFC team exec says. "Now it's QB, pass rusher, cornerback, wide receiver."

the point in this article is that the "trifecta" is void and the LT isn't even part of the equation anymore.

Then the point of the article is false. The spread option will eventually go the way of the 46 defense. You cannot consistently put your QB at risk in the NFL. Just look at the teams in the playoffs. Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers...none of them are ever going to run the spread option. You basically had RGIII, Kaepernick, and Wilson (sort of) and RGIII got hurt. This is typical lazy journalism by ESPN and it is what I have come to expect from the Worldwide Leader in hype.

Saccopoo 04-07-2013 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneWolf (Post 9563967)
Then the point of the article is false. The spread option will eventually go the way of the 46 defense. You cannot consistently put your QB at risk in the NFL. Just look at the teams in the playoffs. Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers...none of them are ever going to run the spread option. You basically had RGIII, Kaepernick, and Wilson (sort of) and RGIII got hurt. This is typical lazy journalism by ESPN and it is what I have come to expect from the Worldwide Leader in hype.

So, you are basically saying that approximately half the teams in the playoffs were operating out of a spread system (and Brady definitely runs a spread almost all the time - he's not a runner, but it most certainly is a spread type system that they employ in NE these days).

And it's not like there is a singular "system" at this point anyway. Most teams are utilizing variants of numerous systems on both sides of the ball. You'll see cover 2's, 46's, 43's, 34's, etc. out of one team.

It's not three yards and a cloud of dust with the best players on the best teams winning. Teams have been forced to employ various sets in order to counter the innovations that we've seen on both sides of the ball in the past decade.

Dave Lane 04-07-2013 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzz_TinBalls (Post 9563897)
did you read this or are you drunk.

Ehhh talk to text on my cell phone. It's usually fairly accurate.

Dave Lane 04-07-2013 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redsurfer11 (Post 9563950)
This article is complete BS. The Ravens were having O-line problems. When McKenzie came on board, Oher volunteered to move to right. Oher spent his rookie year at right tackle. The move made Flacco a better QB. In the same division as Von Miller, I'll take the bookend tackles.

Over a good QB?

Fail.

LoneWolf 04-07-2013 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saccopoo (Post 9563978)
So, you are basically saying that approximately half the teams in the playoffs were operating out of a spread system (and Brady definitely runs a spread almost all the time - he's not a runner, but it most certainly is a spread type system that they employ in NE these days).

And it's not like there is a singular "system" at this point anyway. Most teams are utilizing variants of numerous systems on both sides of the ball. You'll see cover 2's, 46's, 43's, 34's, etc. out of one team.

It's not three yards and a cloud of dust with the best players on the best teams winning. Teams have been forced to employ various sets in order to counter the innovations that we've seen on both sides of the ball in the past decade.

There is a difference between a spread option offense and using multiple wide receivers to spread out the defense. There are 12 teams that made the playoffs, and two used the spread option a majority of the time and Seattle used it some, but Wilson is more of a pocket passer that runs when he needs to. Having an upper echelon LT is still one of the most important positions in football and anyone suggesting differently is wrong. LT is definitely more important than CB in today's NFL.

The article even contradicts itself by saying pass rusher is important, but The LT's importance is diminished. Who do they think has the job of blocking these important pass rushers?

Bewbies 04-07-2013 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneWolf (Post 9564006)
There is a difference between a spread option offense and using multiple wide receivers to spread out the defense. There are 12 teams that made the playoffs, and two used the spread option a majority of the time and Seattle used it some, but Wilson is more of a pocket passer that runs when he needs to. Having an upper echelon LT is still one of the most important positions in football and anyone suggesting differently is wrong. LT is definitely more important than CB in today's NFL.

The article even contradicts itself by saying pass rusher is important, but The LT's importance is diminished. Who do they think has the job of blocking these important pass rushers?

It also says you need to be good across your whole front 5.

Spread concepts mean a spread out field, more receivers, faster throws, more space. That's why elite o-line isn't as important as elite pass rush, and coverage guys that neutralize the quick passing game.

The league is always changing, many people still see the NFL teams built in the 80's and 90's as how one builds a team today.

Pasta Little Brioni 04-07-2013 09:57 AM

Neither is corner though.

Pasta Little Brioni 04-07-2013 09:58 AM

Pissing away this pick on a damn tackle would be foolish.

LoneWolf 04-07-2013 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewbies (Post 9564013)
That's why elite o-line isn't as important as elite pass rush

This is a contradictory statement.

Bewbies 04-07-2013 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneWolf (Post 9564032)
This is a contradictory statement.

Passes are out faster. That means:
1. You don't block as long
2. You have less time to get to the QB

Lowers requirement for elite blockers, raises the need for elite pass rushers.

Got it Frankie?

LoneWolf 04-07-2013 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewbies (Post 9564035)
Passes are out faster. That means:
1. You don't block as long
2. You have less time to get to the QB

Lowers requirement for elite blockers, raises the need for elite pass rushers.

Got it Frankie?

Passes are out faster. That means:
1. Elite pass rushers are going to be less effective.
2. You still need a dominant blind side protector to protect your most valuable asset, your QB on the occasions that the quick pass is not available.

There is a reason everyone has insurance on their cars and homes.

Got it PeytonsPrincess?

Ace Gunner 04-07-2013 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewbies (Post 9564035)
Passes are out faster. That means:
1. You don't block as long
2. You have less time to get to the QB
3. NFL secretly allowing LT's to hold that mutha ****a like a mutha ****a
Lowers requirement for elite blockers, raises the need for elite pass rushers.

Got it Frankie?

FYP cuzz it's ALL ABOUT THA QB NOW and Goody Goodell is as crooked as they come

Bewbies 04-07-2013 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneWolf (Post 9564047)
Passes are out faster. That means:
1. Elite pass rushers are going to be less effective.
2. You still need a dominant blind side protector to protect your most valuable asset, your QB on the occasions that the quick pass is not available.

There is a reason everyone has insurance on their cars and homes.

Got it PeytonsPrincess?

Did you read the whole section about needing to be strong in all 5 positions up front?

This article doesn't claim that o-line isn't important, it says that the LT is no longer the building block.

An elite LT doesn't do shit if they are rushing you from the right side of your line....

tk13 04-07-2013 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman (Post 9563718)
Comparing one player to another is not suggesting that player is the same player, or that he will ever play to the level that the player has achieved.

But you can watch a player and see similarities in their game.

It's stupid to dismiss comparisons.

I can watch Reggie Bush even today and see the valid comparison of his style to Gale Sayers.

Anyone that would suggest that comparison is even remotely suggesting their production is similar is a moron that can't draw a distinction.

Well you can always make comparisons. But that doesn't mean they are a good idea. Matt Cassel's release when he was playing well was very similar to John Elway. He didn't have the arm strength or accuracy, but the physical mechanics of their throwing motion were very similar.

As far as Rodgers though... I don't think there's anyone out there like him. Stafford probably. The way the ball comes out of his hand, it's amazing. It is kind of that Elway-like zip to rip it down the field. Flacco probably has a bigger arm... but he throws a lot of rainbows.

tk13 04-07-2013 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneWolf (Post 9563861)
Both Super Bowl teams had 1st round starting LTs. Manning had a first round LT. The Patriots have a 2nd round and 1st rounder as their starting tackles. Seattle has Okung at tackle.

I'm not advocating taking Joeckel or Fisher, but this article while having some good points isn't being completely honest. Using Long and Thomas as examples is deceiving. They both have never had a good or even average QB playing behind them. And then using Matt Ryan as the example of a QB being successful in the playoffs without an upper echelon LT is hilarious. The one playoff win Matt Ryan whose team has repeatedly been upset in the playoffs?! Typical ESPN lazy reporting.

Matt Ryan is a good QB. I'd take him on the Chiefs in a second. If they didn't have a Greg Robinson-level secondary they would've been in the Super Bowl this year. That's why all that ga-ga about Wilson is a bit disingenuous. The Falcons DBs were leaving receivers wide open all over the field. It was horrible. That's why it was Wilson's only 300 yard game of the entire season. Same thing happened against the Niners.

But that said, even Matt Ryan had a 1st round pick at LT.

Saccopoo 04-07-2013 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewbies (Post 9564187)
Did you read the whole section about needing to be strong in all 5 positions up front?

This article doesn't claim that o-line isn't important, it says that the LT is no longer the building block.

An elite LT doesn't do shit if they are rushing you from the right side of your line....

And that's the thing: teams are constantly switching their elite pass rusher to both sides in an effort to maximize matchups. It's no longer about DT, LT, Andre Tippett type guys who are on the right side 97% of the time just pinning their ears back to beat a single left tackle on third down. Guys are flipping sides, dropping into coverage, stunting, etc. all over the place in order to get into the backfield as soon as possible to disrupt the quicker pass oriented offenses on any down.

It's why you've got to spread out the capabilities of all the offensive linemen, just not put all your money into a blindside protector and four roadgraders.

It's why the term "blindside" doesn't have as much meaning as it did 10-15 years ago.

And why I really like the offensive line that we have. Pissholi deservedly got a lot of shit for what he did, but I seriously think that he put together the building blocks for establishing a very solid offensive line unit that has the potential to be one of the best in the league. The only guy he missed out on was Zane Beadles when he drafted McCluster instead, but otherwise, the pieces are in place to have a pretty darn good O-line, especially if they can re-sign Albert.

But even if they trade him, I'm not too worried about a line consisting of:

LT: Stephenson
LG: Asamoah
C: Hudson
RG: Schwartz
RT: Allen

especially if Lilja comes back for depth on the interior and they pickup a guy from someone's camp or draft a good tackle prospect this year. (KU's Hawkinson, Wisconsin's Ricky Wagner or Virginia's Oday Oboushi would all be ideal in that 5/6 round range. All have plus athleticism and have been very good pass protectors for their entire careers.)

Hammock Parties 04-07-2013 11:47 AM

I'd be scared to ****ing death of Stephenson at LT, sorry.

Penciling him in as a solid player at this point is laughable. HUGE question mark.

Same goes with Jeff Allen.

LoneWolf 04-07-2013 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewbies (Post 9564187)
Did you read the whole section about needing to be strong in all 5 positions up front?

This article doesn't claim that o-line isn't important, it says that the LT is no longer the building block.

An elite LT doesn't do shit if they are rushing you from the right side of your line....

Teams like to rush from the left side because most QBs are right handed and they have a harder time seeing the rush from that side. The article is bogus and the fact that you are buying it hook, line, and sinker is laughable.

LoneWolf 04-07-2013 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saccopoo (Post 9564229)
And that's the thing: teams are constantly switching their elite pass rusher to both sides in an effort to maximize matchups. It's no longer about DT, LT, Andre Tippett type guys who are on the right side 97% of the time just pinning their ears back to beat a single left tackle on third down. Guys are flipping sides, dropping into coverage, stunting, etc. all over the place in order to get into the backfield as soon as possible to disrupt the quicker pass oriented offenses on any down.

It's why you've got to spread out the capabilities of all the offensive linemen, just not put all your money into a blindside protector and four roadgraders.

It's why the term "blindside" doesn't have as much meaning as it did 10-15 years ago.

And why I really like the offensive line that we have. Pissholi deservedly got a lot of shit for what he did, but I seriously think that he put together the building blocks for establishing a very solid offensive line unit that has the potential to be one of the best in the league. The only guy he missed out on was Zane Beadles when he drafted McCluster instead, but otherwise, the pieces are in place to have a pretty darn good O-line, especially if they can re-sign Albert.

But even if they trade him, I'm not too worried about a line consisting of:

LT: Stephenson
LG: Asamoah
C: Hudson
RG: Schwartz
RT: Allen

especially if Lilja comes back for depth on the interior and they pickup a guy from someone's camp or draft a good tackle prospect this year. (KU's Hawkinson, Wisconsin's Ricky Wagner or Virginia's Oday Oboushi would all be ideal in that 5/6 round range. All have plus athleticism and have been very good pass protectors for their entire careers.)

How often do players like Jared Allen, Tamba Hali, or Von Miller switch sides. I know Von rushes from the right side, but the QB is almost always looking at that side. That is why the LT is the most important position on the line.

Bewbies 04-07-2013 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneWolf (Post 9564251)
Teams like to rush from the left side because most QBs are right handed and they have a harder time seeing the rush from that side. The article is bogus and the fact that you are buying it hook, line, and sinker is laughable.

Tell me again why Notre Dame is as good as Alabama...

Do you pay attention to the positions getting big money? Have you not noticed the contracts LT's are getting is going down, while all the other line positions is going up?

In today's NFL the left tackle is no longer a top 3 piece to build your team around.

Saccopoo 04-07-2013 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonton Prejudice (Post 9564243)
I'd be scared to ****ing death of Stephenson at LT, sorry.

Penciling him in as a solid player at this point is laughable. HUGE question mark.

Same goes with Jeff Allen.

Then you should be downright terrified of them drafting guys like Joeckel, Fisher or Johnson.

Stephenson was as good as any of those guys as a junior and got good playing time late last season. He was definitely better than Johnson on the same team. A training camp with Reid and he's going to be ready to absolutely blow up.

And Allen was a four year starter at right (freshman) and left tackle (sophomore, junior, senior) for the Illini. Second team All-American as a freshman and made All-Conference lists every single year.

Don Stephenson at left tackle is one of my least concerning concerns for next season and I think that Allen has the capability of being a solid right tackle in this scheme. He's 6'4 1/2", 315 lbs. with good power, feet and hands. I hated that they (Crennel/Pissholi) tried to shoehorn him into the guard position, but with Winston gone, I think he's got a shot at the RT spot.

It's like Geoff Schwartz said: I can play right tackle, but I'm a better guard. Allen is a better tackle than guard.

No, my stated lineup wouldn't worry me in the least.

Chiefshrink 04-07-2013 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefMojo (Post 9563497)
Doesn't mean squat for Geno in our situation, it means that Dion Jordan could be the guy.

Yep !

Having a good rush in the 4th quarter is essential and will never go away especially in a pass happy league.

Hammock Parties 04-07-2013 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saccopoo (Post 9564348)
Then you should be downright terrified of them drafting guys like Joeckel, Fisher or Johnson.

Stephenson was as good as any of those guys as a junior and got good playing time late last season. He was definitely better than Johnson on the same team. A training camp with Reid and he's going to be ready to absolutely blow up.

And Allen was a four year starter at right (freshman) and left tackle (sophomore, junior, senior) for the Illini. Second team All-American as a freshman and made All-Conference lists every single year.

Don Stephenson at left tackle is one of my least concerning concerns for next season and I think that Allen has the capability of being a solid right tackle in this scheme. He's 6'4 1/2", 315 lbs. with good power, feet and hands. I hated that they (Crennel/Pissholi) tried to shoehorn him into the guard position, but with Winston gone, I think he's got a shot at the RT spot.

It's like Geoff Schwartz said: I can play right tackle, but I'm a better guard. Allen is a better tackle than guard.

No, my stated lineup wouldn't worry me in the least.

I'll eat a bug if Stephenson AND Allen are our starting tackles next season.

Reid isn't going to war with those guys based on their rookie tape.

penbrook 04-07-2013 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefshrink (Post 9564355)
Yep !

Having a good rush in the 4th quarter is essential and will never go away especially in a pass happy league.

So the question will be is Jordan Halis bitch or Houstons bitch.

Saccopoo 04-07-2013 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneWolf (Post 9564274)
How often do players like Jared Allen, Tamba Hali, or Von Miller switch sides. I know Von rushes from the right side, but the QB is almost always looking at that side. That is why the LT is the most important position on the line.

A lot actually. You see Tamba on the right side a lot. Not so much now that Houston is there, but he used to switch up a lot.

Allen, not so much as he's operating out of a 43, but he flips as well.

Miller is all over the field.

It's still an important position, but it's not the absolute cornerstone of a team as it once was. Teams are looking for more balance on the line versus sinking a huge contract into one guy and having run paving road graders at the four other positions.

It's rapidly turning from a run-run-pass league (which mandated a high quality blindside protector) to a do whatever you can to move the ball downfield offensive game plan. Pulling guards and centers and tackles capable of quickly getting to the second level are just as important as that blindside protector.

LoneWolf 04-07-2013 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewbies (Post 9564332)
Tell me again why Notre Dame is as good as Alabama...

Do you pay attention to the positions getting big money? Have you not noticed the contracts LT's are getting is going down, while all the other line positions is going up?

In today's NFL the left tackle is no longer a top 3 piece to build your team around.

Keep telling yourself this when three of the top ten picks in the draft are LTs.

Saccopoo 04-07-2013 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wonton Prejudice (Post 9564365)
I'll eat a bug if Stephenson AND Allen are our starting tackles next season.

Reid isn't going to war with those guys based on their rookie tape.

No, he won't. But he'll go to war with those guys after a full training camp in his system.

With both of them getting good reps last season, it only helped their development if Albert gets traded prior to the start of the season.

And there are very few rookies who are forced into playing time that usually come out looking like rock stars. Neither of those guys got first team reps until they were forced onto the field due to injury.

However, both were high level players at the college level with potential for the NFL who now know what it's like to block at that level. That game time that they got was extremely valuable and an off-season/summer camp with a guy that is a pretty decent offensive mind versus a complete buffoon like Daboll is going to be Nirvana-level enlightening for not only the offensive line, but for all the players.

I think that both of those guys are going to be okay when the season rolls around.

DTLB58 04-07-2013 01:29 PM

I saw this great article on Twitter last night. Good stuff. :clap:

DTLB58 04-07-2013 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzz_TinBalls (Post 9563955)
"When coaches talk about position hierarchy, left tackle isn't among the top few anymore," an AFC team exec says. "Now it's QB, pass rusher, cornerback, wide receiver."

the point in this article is that the "trifecta" is void and the LT isn't even part of the equation anymore.

Hence, the signing of Smith, retaining Bowe, signing Smith and Robinson and maybe Geno or a pass rusher in the first round and why Albert hasn't been signed to a long term deal.


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