Any fishkeepers here? Saltwater or freshwater
 

I'm looking at starting up a saltwater tank. Is there a good fish store in the KC area without driving out to Lawrence?

Saltwater Fish
 

The best saltwater store that i know of is in the Park Place mall at 117th & Nall.
http://www.picassoexoticaquatics.com Hope this works for you.

Got a 150 gal Salt. It's a lot of work and $. Don't live near KC.

That place looks expensive as ****.

This. They are very knowledgeable about getting you started and setting up your tank. You might want to shop around when it comes time for fish and livestock. They are all over the place with their prices.

I recently started a small saltwater tank to see if it was worth the hassle, so far it's not that much of a hassle and it's pretty cool.

What size are you looking at? I have done too many years with salt water... only thing I can recommend is get an EHEIM filter... and be prepared for a lot of dead fish... it takes awhile before you can get a consistent ecosystem. I had Rays and Angels and Clowns and snowflake eels that all lived for about a year before the tank(180 gal.) was actually ready for a sustainable salt water environment.

It's an expensive endeavor.. but worth it if you can last.

Get a bucket and steal some water from the sea.
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Ewww. With all that oil and polution? No thanks.

Had a saltwater tank for about 3 years. Very expensive, and yes, a top notch filter is an absolute must. A lot of work, very expensive, and at times, very stressful. People would stop by and say "Oh, you have a saltwater tank; that must be so relaxing". Yeah, right.

Whenever I see underwater scenes in tropical waters on TV I can almost without exception say "Yep...killed one of those".

The ONLY way I would have another salt water tank is if I could afford someone else to maintain it...which if you can swing, I highly reccommend.

Saltwater is considerably more difficult and much more expensive to maintain than a freshwater tank.

I have a 60gal. freshwater tank. I much prefer freshwater. Some saltwater fish look super cool, but I'm pretty content with my freshwater setup.

I'm a freshwater gal, but I purchase all of my supplies online from bigalsonline.com. Their prices are better than the chain stores, plus they have free s&h when you purchase over $75 worth of goods. If you want to order your stock/corals, liveaquaria.com would be the way to go. They have some beautiful, rare fish. Shipping can be a bit much though.

I have a 50 gallon that I plan to use for a saltwater......just waiting till I buy a new house before I set it up.

Check out.

www.reefcentral.com

gotta go small first on saltwater. practice. obviously you can see the expense.

of course saltwater fish/critters can have a fantastic "look".
but there's a lot of fresh water that can have an exotic look too.

if you're loaded and can afford trial an error, go for it. good luck. and make sure you post pics and stuff man. good luck!

When people say "expensive" to have a salt tank, could you elaborate on the dollars(range) and what costs so much?

Saltwater tanks are the biggest pain in the ass.

Sure, the fish look cool.....when they're alive. An owner of a hotel I worked at decided to put an aquarium flush in the wall in the lobby. He and I took care if it.

JFC....I would never own one of those things. Keeping the PH balance right is a hige pain in the ass....and even if you do that right, they still die.

IIRC, we've killed Tangs, Angel Fish, Puffer fish (at least 2 of those i think). There were a lot more that I can't remember right now.

We had a good sized Lionfish too. He was hardy and all, but he made it no fun trying to clean the tank.

how much ya got?

yup. that expensive, braugh.

How Much for a 10 Gallon Mini-Reef Clownfish Tank?
The cost to set up a simple 10g "Nemo and Friends" reef aquarium.+
http://0.tqn.com/d/saltaquarium/1/G/...0gnemo_598.JPG

By Stan & Debbie Hauter, About.com Guides
See More About:

setting up an aquarium
reef tanks
mini-reef aquariums

"Having a saltwater aquarium doesn't have to cost and arm and a leg."

This is a little 10 gallon tank we refer to as a "Nemo and Friends" aquarium. You don't have to go big to have a saltwater aquarium, and this small aquarium didn't cost much at all to set up.
Photo © Debbie and Stan Hauter
How much would it cost to set up a 10 gallon mini-reef tank with clownfishes? Of course product prices will vary, but the total estimated cost to buy all the items listed here for setting up what we like to call a simple 10g "Nemo and Friends" aquarium (see full photo view), about $273.00 to $348.00. These figures include reef lighting that will support soft corals.

Here's a breakdown on everything:

All-Glass Aquarium/Aqueon 10 gallon aquarium = $13.00 - 17.00

Aqueon 20 Power Filter = $20.00 - 28.00

All-Glass Aquarium 20" Incandescent Full Hood = $35.00 - 45.00

2 Coralife 18 watt 50/50 Mini-Compact Bulbs = $25.00 - 35.00

Hagen AquaClear 20 Powerhead = $22.00 - 28.00

Marineland Visi-Therm 50w Submersible Stealth Heater = $18.00 - 23.00

Thermometer = $2.00 - 3.00

Mag-Float 30 Magnetic Algae Cleaner = $6.00 - 9.00

20 lbs. CaribSea Arag-Alive Sand (Fiji Pink) = $25.00 - 31.00

3 small pieces (about 5 lbs.) Fiji Live Rock = $35.00 - 45.00

Instant Ocean Salt 10 Gallon = $6.00 - 8.00

Instant Ocean Hydrometer = $8.00 - 11.00

2 Tank-Raised Ocellaris/False Percula Clownfish = $35.00 - 50.00

1 Four Stripe Damsel = $5.00 - 8.00

2 Blue-Legged Hermit Crabs = $3.00 - 6.00

1 Astrea Snail = $2.00 - 4.00

1 large Mexican Turbo Snail = $3.00 - 5.00

Artifical Plants: 1 Aquarium Systems SeaGarden Caulerpa Vertcellata and 1 Dictyota Rossa, 1 Tetra Water Wonders 9" Corkscrew Val = $10.00 - 15.00

1 large natural sea shell (Not included in estimate due to such wide ranging prices.)

Total Estimated Set Up Cost = $273.00 - 348.00

(*Prices reflect comparison online to retail average cost of items in February 2009.)

First off the fish cost a lot more. And you have to be prepared for them to die, because like I said before, you can do everything by the book and they may still die. You need the proper lighting and proper filters, typically very expensive stuff.

It's mainly the maintenance. Needs to be cleaned very frequently and the PH balance needs to constantly monitored.

That's why I went w/ a freshwater community tank. I lost track of how much I've spent for my 55g, but it must be over $1000 by now.

Plus, w/ a freshwater, you can go w/ a planted tank. Here's a pic of mine...

Very cool tank.

If I ever owned one, I'd def go Freshwater.

Owning a Saltwater tank is more work than owning a dog...with much less satisfaction.

I'll second everything mentioned.

I've had all sorts of tanks for +35 yrs. Never salt due to the expense and a mostly overlooked fact the for every gal of water, freshwater will hold 4x the number of fish vs salt due to the oxygen available.

I want a busy, full of bright fish, low maintainance and low cost.



http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...9O5rAJAaoyc_bg


These are just a few quickly found.

And the options are endless: planted, cichlid tank (african/south american/rift lake), passive, aggressive, small/big fish, barb tank (great for small tanks), compatiblity issues...



http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/fish...e=18439&size=1


http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/fish...e=21224&size=1


http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/fish...php?file=21054

wow, that does sure look purdy (really).

i recently just shut my 55 gallon down after 15 years worth of use. even made it through 3 moves. ended up with a parrot fish that was a living debbil. and even he made it 5 years.
i'll start it up again, but i'm gonna move it to the the basement that's part of a finish plan, so probably in the next 5 years, too.

Thanks for the compliments, guys! We've had our 55g setup for almost 2 years. We also have a 5g planted freshwater in our bedroom that houses an African Dwarf Frog, 5 Red Cherry Shrimp, 3 Lyretail Guppies, and a shitload of Pond Snails.

holy crap

that are gonna die!!!

these cost $1-2

school of some of these

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/imag...etrazona_2.jpg

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/barbs/ruby-barb.jpg


http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/barbs/blue-danio.jpg

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/imag...n_innesi_1.jpg


toss in one of these

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/imag...ens_male_3.jpg


10 gal cost ~ $150 fresh water, active, colorful. And if a fish dies, go get another for a buck or two!!!

For all of you that are going to set up a tank and current tanks that you want to make EXTREMELY low maintainance.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article64.html


Cliff note version:

Undergravel filter are highly efficient filters. The whole gravel bed is a filter. Pain to keep clean because the crap is being sucked down into the gravel, thus much vacuuming is needed. Also, large rocks can create dead spots and if the fish dig, creats "holes" in the filter.

A reverse flow undergravel filter forces water the opposite direction, upwards thru the gravel with the pre-filter on the power head gathering all the crap. Thus to clean the filters, just pop off the pre-filter, rinse it off, re-attach...and done!!

An OVER ENGINEERED reverse flow utilizes egg crate light diffusers. Those are the white with lil open square fluorescent light covers.

http://www.eplastics.com/core/media/...1d46d98&whence

Stack those with the blue/white filter media in between the diffusers. Cover the whole stack with nylon screen. Then cover with vineer of gravel for the fish to play with and for looks. The true filter bed is the layered media. Mine is stacked with 3 layers of media. In my 120g tank, that equals 18 square ft for bacteria sites to form.

In addition, I have the traditional hang on the back and canister filters.

Result = to maintain a 120g with 25 fish is ~30 min every 2 weeks:)

i believe your first photo is a variation of a black skirt. i've had a set of these guys that lasted 6-8 years. EXTREMELY low maintanance. and they're fun to watch, which is a necessity IMHO.

6-8 years is pretty good! You must have been doing something right or else you got lucky w/ the stock.

The 4th pic that was posted, Neon Tetras... I had a school of 9 and now I'm down to 2. They are beautiful, but not very hardy at all. I've heard that Cardinal Tetras are way better.

I have a nice school of 5-Harlequin Rasboras and 6-Silver Tip Tetras. Here are a few pics of my little guys...

actually, i had a set of 4 originally. then i added 6 more. lost 2 after about 3 years, but the others were extremely hardy.
those neons are a sweet fish. i never had much luck with them. but i've known people that had them repo at an insane rate. i think i had too many fish myself.

That's because it is. It's catering to the Johnson County crowd. People who want a pretty tank, but aren't really interested in the hobby.

Aquarium Wholesale in the Great Mall in Olathe has a ton of stuff. They also have a bunch of used tanks for a semi-reasonable price.

Midwest Reefs (north of 152 on N. Oak) is a good place for livestock. Steve will answer most questions you have, and is a nice guy.

Paradise on 119th & Metcalf is where I bought my first tank. I was in there a few weeks ago and he's really let his livestock go to crap. A lot of dead fish and the ones that were still in there were hanging by a thread.

My best piece of advice to you if you're just starting out: use craigslist. There are a ton of tanks out out there that people are just trying to unload because they want out. You can get them for a fraction of what you can in the store. I bought a 120 gal off there a few months ago, it's my latest project.

Good luck, it's an incredibly fun, challenging, and frustrating hobby at times. But I still have a blast with it.

Last coupla points.

#1 I plumbed a good sized pond pump with pvc to provide a circular current. At one end of the tank I put a pvc 45 degree angle just under the tanks surface. This shoots a garden hose type of water jet diaganoly down thru the right side of the tank. They love to go play in the current:) At the other end of the tank, there is a pipe above the surface parralell with the surface. The two flow in a clockwise motion around the tank. I've valved the 2 pipes so the major pressure goes to the 45 jet current. The above the surface one is a trickle dropping in to help with areating the water.

Besides the play current, (which is a hoot when a small fish goes thru it, it blastes them a foot down stream) is the pond pumps large pre-filter. Due to its' size, provides the best collector of tank crap. When combined with the 3 reverse flow pre-filers, is another reason the tank is so low maintainance.

#2 Buy an auto fish feeder. Not that expensive and nice to have. Thus Im not forced to make time to go feed the fish. They are always hungery, for entertainment purposes, I can choose to go "supplement" their diet. And of course when on vacation or gone on weekends.

#3 Use a light timer to auto turn on the lights. Another nice low maintainance item since the tank is down in the mancave.

When all put together...I dont have to do Jack, but watch them play.

If all you were checking was PH, that was your problem. That actually matters least of the harmful stuff that can be in a saltwater tank. Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, and Phosphate are all much more critcal. Keep those in check and your problems will be minimal.

Also, if you have a good clean up crew of snails and the right bottom feeders, cleaning is a minimal task also. I rarely touch the inside glass of mine, unless it's to remove a smudge or something. The snails keep it looking almost completely clean.

Agreed with one MAJOR exception. Scratchs. I bought my 120g used. I didnt realize how many small scratchs it had until a few months later the algae started to build up. The first place it grows is in those darn scratchs:(

20/20 hindsight, I should popped for a new one. But at the time, saving $500 was huge. Now 14 yrs later.....am I gonna break down a nice tank, move a 6 foot long sucker...nah. I'll just live with the scratchs and get more pleco's.

Lumpy,

nice set ups. I have a 10 and a 30g that are almost as fun as the big tank. In the 10, i had some cichlid shellies. Those lil idiots would drag their shells all over the tank!

I've been pretty luck in that regard. Usually if that's a major problem, they are visibile. But I can understand the concern. For a person just starting out, it doesnt make a lot of sense to spend more than 2x as much on a new tank though, IMO.

true dat

Thanks! I have a 10g too, but it's currently setup as a quarantine/hospital tank. Got any pics of your tanks?

Very good points... especially about the parameters! :thumb:

Ammonia and Nitrites should read at 0ppm and Nitrates should be >40ppm. As far as your pH, as long as it stays constant, there's no need to try to adjust it. A lot of people purchase the crap that increases or decreases pH only to find their stock dead shortly after dosing the tank.

Also, API makes a great liquid kit to test your parameters. When we were cycling our tank, we screwed up and bought the strips that you dip in the tank. Never trust those damn things! The parameters were reading wrong and we thought our tank was cycled. Then, when we added our first batch of fish, they were getting Ammonia burns and many of them jumped out of the tank.

Lots of great advice, and information in this thread that stokes some good, and not so good memories.

I didn't ever get into the salt water, but went whole hog on the fresh water for several years. Had a vertical 80, and several 20s.

Was going to get rich selling angel fish to the aquarium shops! ROFL

They were charging a lot for them, so I took in a couple hundred of my nurtured pride and joy baby angels in to them. They offered me 15 cents each.
I kind of lost interest after that.

The API kit is the best one I've used.

If you want to browse different types of fish, check out this site. Really cool stuff on there. I just got underway with my new tank after moving a few months back. So far, I've got a black and white clown, a kole yellow eye tank, diamond goby, and lawnmower blenny. I'm trying to go for more original stuff than the standard blue tank, orange clown, etc. It's hard to do though, as some of the really cool looking fish will tear up your coral.

http://www.saltwaterfish.com/

A few of my freshwater fish:

German Red Peacock:
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1...7722360280.jpg

Yellow Lab:
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7...7732694493.jpg

Gold Nugget Pleco:
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/520...7223vdtprl.jpg

Jack Dempsey:
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8...empseyblue.jpg


And here's a video of one of my snails pushing a golf ball around my tank:
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Ev-nUXg33A4" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

You can see my big green Severum in the video too..

FYI... I order the majority of my fish through here: http://www.livefishdirect.com/

I really recommend them. They have a great selection of fish you'd never see in stores around KC. I've had great results with very few deaths due to shipping.

I like how there's an expert on CP for every possible field.

Lots of strange information in this thread, IMO.

I've had tanks of various fashions and forms for about 15 years now. I presently have a 90 gallon freshwater community tank and a 130 gallon saltwater reef. I've done cichlids (the pictures above), piranha, livebreeders, fish-only saltwater, and lord knows what else. I've settled on the reef as the best looking and easily the highest 'work/reward' ratio.

Some misconceptions, IMO:

A) Freshwater is easier than salt. I strongly disagree. Freshwater is cheaper than salt, but you'll never get as strong a biological filtration system in a freshwater tank. As a consequence, you need to change the water out to get the waste out well. In a saltwater setup, most of the waste will break down through your biological setup and eventually evacuate as a gas after the ammonia cycle finishes up.

B) Start small with a saltwater tank. NO! No no no, 1000 times no. A smaller saltwater tank is significantly harder to deal with because a change in the water chemistry can be quick and catastrophic. If you're running a 20 gallon setup and a fish dies, it could create enough bio-load on its own to run up your ammonia levels, converting to nitrite then nitrates. The ammonia/nitrite spike would kill your fish and the nitrate spike would cause an algae bloom. With a large tank, however, that dead fish simply won't register. There's so much water that changes in water chemistry are significantly more gradual.

You can do a saltwater tank cheap, or you can do it well. You can't really do both. If you want to start with a 'cheaper' alternative, get a large setup and work slowly into it. Keep the tank 1/2 empty for awhile if need be. Do not, however, start small. I would only recommend Nano setups and the 'desktop' tanks to people that are much more involved with the tank. If you want an easier tank to deal with, especially saltwater, go with 90 gallons or better.

As for setup advice:

1) Go to Craigslist and try to find someone getting out. This is huge in that they will already have live-rock or other biological media that has gone through the ammonia cycle. This will mean that you won't have that 'be prepared for dead fish' beginning suggested. What that is is simply your tank building up its biological bacteria to process the waste appropriately. With 'used' liverock that will already be there and will greatly improve your initial success. It will also be about 1/5 as expensive.

If you don't have that biological setup running through used rock, it'll be a couple of months before the tank has 'cycled' and you won't want any fish in it until afterwards. You can do this by putting some regular ol' eating shrimp in the tank immediately after setup, letting it rot and the bacteria that takes care if it will cycle the tank and the bacteria will populate the rock. Change the water and you're ready to go.

2) Build your tank around your light. If you have the means or if you get lucky, go with one of the new LED setups or a Metal Halide/Power Compact combo. These will make a tank look better than you will ever imagine. I'm particularly fond of the MH setups; the point-source effect created by the light creates a literal 'shimmer' effect in the water. It really can't be duplicated by any other light setup and it's really incredible. I have found that the light is more important to the overall feel of the tank than anything else, including the fish or corals you add to it. A bad light will make beautiful fish look bland.

3) Protein skimmer. The expensive filters are only necessary if your biological setup is insufficient. More critical than filtration is actually water movement. This will keep algae down as well as oxygenate the water well (critical for healthy fish; especially tangs and a few others). A protein skimmer will get the small particulates in the water that won't settle and break down on the bottom of the tank. These help a great deal. I have a Precision Marine Bullet; I don't recommend them. It's a beckett injector system and frankly it sucks a little bit. Look for a good cone skimmer. These are the most important 'filter' mechanism. If you decide you need another supplemental filter, a Magnum cannister filter will be sufficient to run carbon or something like that. I use a Fluval 350 (I think), it's overkill.

4) Maintenance is simple. Do a 10% water change every couple of weeks and you'll be fine. Some people do more, some people never do any. I have found that my corals are healthier with periodic water changes, but I think that's because they need the nutrients in the salt as I don't have a calcium reactor and don't dose with coral nutrients. I really use the water changes as my sole additives. It's not going to get me a show tank, but it works well enough. If you can get a Reverse osmosis setup, I'd suggest it. They're a couple hundred bucks but they'll keep the phosphates out of your tank and greatly reduce algae problems (as algae feeds on phosphates).

There's a ton of other stuff, but that's why they write books on the subject. If you have a question, just ask. I can tell you what I've learned through my own myriad of failures at this point.

This post alone proves that Saltwater is harder to maintain than freshwater.

Oh yeah - other questions:

Online resources: Marinedepot.com and Drsfostersmith.com are where I get most of my food/supplies. Some swear by Big Als as well. Aquacon has some great specials, but I've never bought from them as the shipping is prohibitive.

Aquarium Wholesale at the great mall is an incredible fish store, though the staff will annoy me on occasion (they're simply understaffed). They have the best prices on coral frags and generally the best fish selection. The owner (Pat) is a nice guy and generally means well, but can be a bit much at times. I try to run by there whenever I'm in town just to see what they have. I've found things like a Mystery Wrasse there for $45 when the only other places I could find them were selling them for $200. He'll also get Achilles tangs, Black tangs and all kinds of stuff that you're otherwise just not going to find.

If you're wanting a freshwater tank with some fish variety, I would really recommend avoiding an Oscar. They're super aggressive, they'll tear the shit out of your tank, they eat/grow quickly, and they're messy. Everyone who starts off with an Oscar will eventually hate it when it grows into a giant asshole fish.

Harder to start. More costly to do well.

Easier to maintain.

If you do your homework first, even the startup isn't that difficult. It just requires about an hour worth of research on the nitrogen cycle and some patience. The rest of it comes from either a knowledgeable local fishstore owner (will steer you right) and some personal preference.

It's not that hard at all once you get going.

It's not my fault you suck at it...

Couldn't agree more with the info you've supplied on here. You obviously are experienced in saltwater tanks. I've done both fresh and salt setups before, and I agree with you. Saltwater isn't any harder, just takes a little bit more thought than a freshwater.

I almost said something about the staff at AW also, but didn't want to bash them, as I buy probably 75% of my stuff from Pat. But yeah, he can be a bit of a used car salesman at times. It's espicially dangerous if you are inexperienced and don't know that he's overselling you on something you don't really need. I don't know his name, but there's a young guy thats in there most of the time that is very experienced, and if I ever have a question, generally offers good advice. If you become a repeat customer, he will also hook you up on some good deals on stuff he has too much of in stock and the like.

I started with a 75 gal, and I think it's the perfect size for a starter. I've had friends with 55 gal tanks before, and I don't like them. Not enough room to work with your rock, and what you said about water volume is critical. IMO 75 is a great starter tank.

I don't know what you think... but getting a new tank started is a lot of fun for me. Live rock is outrageously expensive, so I always start with dry rock, then seed it from a piece or two of live. I like the idea of starting from scratch and doing it all myself though. It generally takes me anywhere from 6-8 weeks from the time I bring the tank into my house until I put the first fish in. But like I said, I think the process itself is a ton of fun.

Above all else - have a plan.

Don't just buy a shitload of fish and throw them in there. Don't go get some blue damsels because they look pretty (they're evil; all damsels are. They're cheap but they're mean and they'll attack the expensive and better stuff later). Don't get an emperor angel and then try to get corals (the angel will eat them).

You'll get run out of the hobby if you have a bad early experience and no plan of attack. Be patient, be persistent and just do a little research.

Freshwater tanks are the highballs of fishkeeping. Sure, it's easier to mix a whiskey and coke, but you drink it and it's gone and there's not a hell of a lot of satisfaction there. Or you could do some homework, figure out what you're up to and brew your own beer; you get the satisfaction of a plan that's come together, a much MUCH better product and a good ol' starter brew will pretty much take care of itself if you just change out the water here and there...

Hate it. Don't like paying $8/lb for liverock and damn sure don't like waiting for seed rock to cure.

I just keep a constant eye out for folks looking to get out, then I'll buy theirs for $1-2/lb. Cheaper, easier, quicker. I'm not a fan of an empty tank and used rock accelerates the process by a month or more.

Here are a few pics of my small saltwater tank. I dig the soft corals, they are pretty expensive but really add something to the tank IMO.

I had Oscars for years and loved them. They'd move things but never tore my tank up and I didn't find them messy at all. Actually I thought they were quite simple. The biggest problem I ever had with Oscars was trying to raise more than one in a tank for a long time because of course one out of a group will end up being the "alpha male" and kill the others a lot of time. I did manage to have 5 in a tank... 3 reds and 2 albino for about a year in a 55 gallon tank. Once I was down to one big red it lived for 5 or 6 years and got quite large. That was pretty cool even though it was the only one left. My pleco got to about 14" long and a few inches wide too before it just up and died one day. Bummed me out.

Mostly I liked buying a dozen feeder goldfish and turning them loose into the tank... heh.

:evil:

I'd say right now, cost is my main deterrent to getting a SW tank. Those fish are ridiculously ****ing expensive. If one dies, I don't want to be out $200.

I have never even had a gold fish. But a few years ago, I was seriously looking at starting a saltwater tank. I probably did 100 hours of research on it. In the end I decided that I'd scratched 80% of my fish itch by doing the research and planning and didn't need to spend untold number of hours and $ scratching the last 20% of my itch. That is a long preamble to saying there is a ton of great advice in this post.

When I was in college I had a Black Rhombeus Piranha that I named Petey. I bought him when he was an inch long for $50. I sold him 4 years later when he was 7 inches long for $500 (included the tank). Some guy drove like 300 miles to pick it up. Man we got a lot of drunk entertainment out of him. In retrospect, it was morbid, but he shredded feeder fish like no ones business. Sometimes we would even buy a large goldfish just to watch him go to town on it. I used to have pics of him, but they vanished the last time my computer crashed....sigh*

Years ago we owned a small pet store. During that experience I learned African cichlids offer the best balance of color/activity/survivability. Just do your homework and make sure the types you're getting are compatible. There are local clubs you can join and they even have swap meets and auctions. You can get MUCH healthier fish at these events than you can from any store, just because of all the travelling the fish go through prior to arriving at the retail location.

With my Africans I have a great filter and change 1/3 of the water every 10 days or so. I never check PH or anything else. The only fish I've killed were from a big heater stuck on. I now put two small heaters in my tanks so I'll have a little more time if one sticks on. My fish usually die from old age :thumb:

I catch some and keep them in the deep freeze. :)

I would suggest there are options available to prove otherwise. See my post #25 on Overengineered RFUGF. I dont know of anyother way to get 18 FT SQUARED in just one filter method.

Agreed as a non-starter fish, posted it because of its' color in defense of salt has more color.

Brings back memories. Had a 12" Red Snakehead. His mouth cavity was 1/3 of his body. We'd starve him for a week then drop in a dozen feeder fish and take bets on how fast he could finish. Boy could he connect the dots:)

Do fish owners really refer to themselves as "fishkeepers"? That's neat. I wonder if that applies to other kinds of pets, too, and which ones.

Bee keeper, I guess.

Very cool looking fish... especially the Jack Dempsey! :thumb:

I wanted to go w/ Cichlids, but Gonzo wanted a Red-Tailed Shark, so we went w/ community fish. Now the Shark bullies everyone in the tank, including our Clown Loach. The only fish he doesn't mess w/ is our Common Pleco. That guy is a monster, measuring around 14"!

Oh, and I LMAO at your snail pushing the golf ball... too funny!!

My brother had a big ass piranha at one time for a couple years and it was extremely entertaining sometimes.

If I were to get a fish, it would surely be a piranha.

Most cichlids would probably be OK in the same tank as your shark, as long as there's enough room.

Achieving peace in your aquarium can be one of the most difficult aspects of "fishkeeping"(:D)...

You can't really just go and buy a bunch of purtty fish and throw them together. Which I learned the hard way when starting out. And it's not as fun when you have just one type of fish in the tank. It takes a lot of research and practice to find the right mix of different fish. A few tips I've learned in achieving aquarium peace:

Carefully research what fish you want to see what type of temperament to expect. Some are very aggressive and don't play well with others. Some require a certain tank size in order to feel comfortable.

Don't overcrowd your tank. Common mistake that can lead to over aggression. Don't buy fish that will eventually outgrow your tank. It's always a good idea to have some "hiding spots" in the tank too, where smaller fish can escape to.

Be very careful about having multiple fish of the same color/shape. They'll be more aggressive toward fish that look like them. Having only one of each species of fish is a good way to encourage peace, although that doesn't always work. And some fish do much much better in pairs.

When possible, learn how to determine the sex of your fish. There's a number of ways to do this if you know what to look for. This also helps in having as bright and beautiful of fish as possible, as males normally have considerably more color than females. Females tend to be more territorial as well, and can aggressively defend spots in the tank when it's breeding time.

You could be right about him being ok w/ Cichlids, but I wanted livebearers too, so going the community route was fine w/ me.

You make some really good points! I did my homework before adding my stock, (made sure they were compatible). The issue w/ the Shark is a territory thing. My Loach took over his tree stump ornament and dude is pissed! LMAO

The only 'goof' I've made w/ my stock was w/ the Common Pleco. When I got him, the fish dork at the store told me he was a Bristlenose. :doh!: There's a guy that just opened an aquatics store here in Omaha that offered to take him... I just need to make my way out there. He's a pretty cool fish though and it's going to suck to give him up, but it needs to be done.

Actually, with Cichlids, 'overcrowding' will generally lower aggression.

If there are a bunch of them in there, they will spend their time chasing each other around but they won't ever target and kill one. Think of it as something of a target rich environment that keeps any individual fish from getting pestered to death.

If you can get a good cichild setup and overfilter it a bit, creating a heavily rocked environment with a bunch of fish will be the most healthy and, IMO, attractive solution.

Do you know if the same can be said for Oscars? I had 5 in a tank before but after about a year I was down to one so I'm guessing the answer is no. This thread has me itching to get a new Oscar tank going.

I wouldn't think so.

I'm talking dozens of cichlids. I think the size of Oscars would prevent that.

I'm also referring to mostly the mbuna cichlids. Those are generally in the 3-5 inch range and have a short enough attention span to lose track of whatever it was they decided they hated. It kinda gets back to an earlier post regarding conspecifics; if a fish sees a similarly colored/shaped fish, it will decide that fish is competition and try to bully it. If that same fish sees a dozen conspecifics, it's simply going to motor around trying to chase as many as they can. At the same time, however, other stuff is going to be chasing it around as well. At that point, you mostly get a lot of movement and a lot of tiny little territories. The fish reach an uneasy truce where they'll briefly pursue each other and end up wandering into another territory and they'll get chased out of there. They'll forget why they're pissed, go back to their territory, rinse and repeat.

Some of the larger ones (Venustus and stuff) probably wouldn't be quite as receptive to the approach. I would imagine that oscars would run into the same issue. You just couldn't have enough of them to create a true 'maelstrom'.

Ok thanks. I'd just really like to have a big red and a big albino in a tank but it proved too hard to do before.

So, I've been perusing Craigslist. Seems like there are a ton of deals on 100+ gal tanks.

I want to do freshwater, though. I want Dwarf Hairgrass to cover the bottom. I love the way it looks when it's all over. So lush and green.

And then I'm going to just put a bunch of schools of peaceful, non-aggressive fish in there, like Neon Tetras, mollies, danios, killfish, a betta, discus, fancy guppies, gouramis, and swordtails. I've had cichlids before in the same tank with barbs, and they did okay. So, with such a large tank, I might be able to get away with one or two, but if I do, they'll come dead last.

What kind of filtration system should I go with? And heater? I've been reading that I should probably stay away from an undergravel filter because of the size of the tank.

Does that sound like a good plan?

That's a start! :D You will need a pretty good light fixture to get your Dwarf Hairgrass to grow right. Depending on the size of the tank you get, a T5HO fixture should do the trick. The only problem is, if you go w/ a high wattage fixture like that, you would need to run a CO2 system or else you will have an algae bloom like you wouldn't believe!

A CO2 system is also expensive and can be too complex for beginners. Which is why I never went w/ CO2. I have a low-med light setup and dose a liquid form of CO2 called Excel. Originally I had a single T5 fixture, but I noticed that my plants were dying off. Then, last week, I added another T5 fixture and BOOYAH! they're taking off.

Planted tanks are a lot of fun, but if you're new to the hobby, it would be best to start out w/ low and move up to high. This way you can get a routine going w/ dosing fertilizers, and adjusting your photoperiod, (how much light exposure your plants will get during the day).

About your stock idea, it sounds good, except w/ the Mollies, Discus, and Cichlids.

Mollies are Brackish fish and may or may not do well in a freshwater tank. I had 3 Gold Dust Mollies in mine, and they did "ok", but they require a certain amount of salt in the water to keep them healthy. I would just substitute Mollies w/ Swordtails if you're looking at getting a nice group of livebearers.

As far as Discus, from what I hear, they can become aggressive and should be kept in a Discus only tank. The Cichlids in a community tank is a really bad idea. They are way too aggressive! Even if they don't technically "kill" any of your community fish, they could stress them out to the point where they could die.

Undergravel filters suck ass! Seriously! I had a partial UGF setup in my tank for about 4 months until I finally had it w/ the amount of crap/debris getting clogged beneath the grates. If you're looking at a tank larger than 75 gallons, I would suggest going w/ a Canister filter. Otherwise, there are some really nice Hang-On-Back filters. Just make sure that you get a filter that will accommodate your tank size.

Heaters are heaters, but just make damn sure it is made for your tank size. The best place to start would be to cruise the Petco/Petsmart sites and read reviews. While you're on the sites, you can also check out their fish and write down the names of the ones you like... then research away! Also, Petco has a compatibility table that will help guide you in your selection.

:LOL: JFC! I wrote a damn novel!

Anyway, there's a lot to learn, but it sounds like you're motivated to get into the hobby. Just take things slow, research everything, let the info sink in, and never feel like an ass if you need to ask questions.

I'm trying to decide if DJ's or Lumpy knows more on the subject at hand... it's a face off!

Will algae be a problem even if the tank is completely out of sunlight and only gets light from the lights? I'm putting it in the basement outside of the theater room, and there aren't any windows down there.

If not, what kind of grass can I get to grow on the bottom of the tank that isn't too difficult? Is there such a thing? If there isn't, then I'll have to learn a CO2 system, I guess. It's the only way my wife will sign off on the freshwater vs. saltwater (because it's the only way the tank looks "pretty" to her).

What do you mean by this?

Noted.

Also noted. Liveaquaria says they're peaceful (Discus) and would get along, but I guess they're wrong.

What's the quietest option?

EHEIM! I had one of these
http://www.eheim.com/img/product/thu...png?1321604535
(well actually mine was close to this but a much much older one)
and it was quiet as hell. Probably overkill for you, but Eheim makes them in all different sizes... I highly recommend going BIG on your filter.

Algae can be a problem in any tank even w/o direct sunlight. The amount of light from your fixture can create an algae bloom. That's why you should run CO2 if you have a light fixture that puts out a lot of wattage. CO2 kills off the algae. If the algae gets out of control, your plants will be competing to get the nutrients and such that the algae is taking in to grow.

As far as an low-light alternative to Dwarf Hairgrass, I don't believe there is one. However, you could always plant patches of Java Moss throughout the substrate. Eventually it will spread and form a nice "carpet" effect. I saw a tank that had Java Moss everywhere and it was beautiful!

"What do you mean by this?" I was meaning that it would be best to start out w/ a low light setup at first, then upgrade your lighting fixture to support high light plants. You will need to dose fertilizers in order for your plants to really take-off and stay green, (even w/ a low light setup). I use Seachem Flourish, Trace, and Root Tabs. The Flourish & Trace are good for the majority of plants that feed from the water column. The Root Tabs are good if you have standard gravel or sand substrate and deep rooting plants like Amazon Swords.

As far as my opinion about the Discus, I'm going by other people's personal experience with them in their community tanks. Liveaquaria is pretty accurate in their info, so they might be "ok" w/ community fish. But from the stories I've read, I wouldn't trust any of those bastards in my tank.

If you're looking for a quiet filter, the best option would be to read reviews on pet supply sites. Just see what others are saying about them. Of course, you may not have the same experience. I just replaced my old HOB filter and got a Tetra Whisper EX70 HOB Filter. Many of the reviewers complained about a grinding noise, but mine is extremely quiet. It's really hit or miss, especially w/ HOB filters. I've never used a Canister filter, but many people love them.

To give you an idea for plants you can start out w/, here's a list of the ones I have in my tank...

Amazon Sword (Echinodorus amazonicus)
Anacharis (Egeria densa)
Cabomba-Purple (Cabomba caroliniana)
Congensis (Anubias congensis)
Crested Java Fern (Microsorium pteropus "Windelov")
Melon Sword (Echinodorus osiris)
Petite Nana (Anubias barteri 'Petite')
Wendtii Green (Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green')

DJ definitely knows his shit! :thumb: I think he has me beat though... I know absolutely nothing about Cichlids.

Having live plants in your tank is much more difficult than it sounds. The conditions have to be very good, and many fish like to unroot the plants. But once you establish it in your tank, it really helps to maintain the bio aspect. It's certainly doable. But just expect some growing pains in getting it established.

Betas don't play with others very well at all.

Discus are one of the most difficult freshwater fish to keep. They're very sensitive to water quality, and usually require weekly water changes at the least. Plus they're pretty expensive, and they usually recommend having quite a few in the tank as they don't do well by themselves. I've had several friends try Discus, and they always ended up losing money and killing them. But damn they sure are beautiful fish.

No offense, but I don't really like your proposed mix of fish. They're all boring starter fish you'd find at any Petsmart. None of them will get very big, and few of them will have any "personality" that you'd see in bigger fish. They're dumb colony fish.

I think a cichlid tank is definitely the way to go. You can have a huge degree of variety that way. And it's really not as hard as you'd think to have a bunch of different cichlids in the tank without having an aggressive atmosphere. There's infinite different species of non aggressive cichlids that would look much better than your normal tetras, mollies, etc. I have a variety of different cichlids in my tank, and I have no aggression or fighting at all. I've got a large Jack Dempsey(6"), a large green severum, 2 African cichlids, a parrotfish, 2 Peacock cichlids, 2 plecos, and a couple Cory cats(hilarious little guys). And it's a very peaceful tank. All the fish have beautiful fins and rarely even chase each other in the tank. Don't be scared off by cichlids...

Take a look at some of the varieties of cichlids here: http://www.livefishdirect.com/store.php?cid=32

I have a friend who recently setup a tank with lots of Lake Malawi Mbuna cichlids, and man is it an impressive tank! Very colorful and unique fish.

Lumpy nailed the filter info.

Whatever you choose, let us know how it goes...

Good info, KC Fish! You know your shit too! :thumb:

However, It sounds like Silock wants to go w/ a planted tank. Aren't Cichlids a big no-no w/ plants?

In regards to this... "They're all boring starter fish you'd find at any Petsmart. None of them will get very big, and few of them will have any "personality" that you'd see in bigger fish. They're dumb colony fish."

That's not entirely true. For instance, he could get a few Clown Loaches, (they grow to 12" and do best in groups of 3+), and they are full of personality and beauty. Once I rehome my Common Pleco, I plan on getting 2 more CL's. Here's a pic of mine...

For freshwater, I think cichlids are definitely the way to go, but I have always been partial to saltwater, fish with live rock or reef. You have to decide if you want a reef or want some exotic non-reef-safe fish, or even a predator tank (Lionfish, stonefish, etc?). I like the look of a reef tank, so I went with a full SPS/LPS/Soft coral setup.

It's all been said, but I will back up what DJ said about saltwater. I've been into reefkeeping for a few years and it's not harder than freshwater, but it is expensive to get started. The key is to look for someone who is 'tearing down" their tank on CL so you can get all the right equipment.

Just a few key points for the starting marine aquarist:

1. Rule #1 of saltwater is that good things happen slowly, and bad things happen quickly. You will hear this over and over, but it is true. More on this later.

2. Start out with a minimum 55 gallon tank, but larger is better. As DJ mentioned, small saltwater tanks are much harder to maintain. Why? The water parameters for reefkeeping or saltwater change much too quickly in a small tank. Unless you are testing your water every 2 days, you might not catch a problem until your tank is wiped. Water volume is your friend. Get a tank that is either drilled or has a built - in overflow. Hang-on-back overflows with a siphon can work well for years, but it's only a question of when they are going to fail and flood your carpet, not if.

3. When buying equipment, get a good skimmer, and use live rock and live sand. Find used, cured live rock from CL if you can, just be sure it is pest free. Don't skimp on the skimmer. I can write pages on pests endemic to live rock, but in a nutshell - ask the guy/girl if they've ever had problems with aiptasia. If so, don't do it! Go for 1 to 1.5 pounds of LR per gallon of water volume.

4. Use a sump and if you have room, a refugium with chaeto. If you need some, it is shippable and cheap.

5. Lighting - I prioritize skimming over lighting if I have to choose where to upgrade, but that's because there are so many good options with lighting. The best advice is to see a tank with metal halides, T5s, and LEDs, and decide what look you like best. I'm a metal halide guy myself, but I like the shimmer and I am still waiting for LED technology to mature. It's still being debated whether or not LED's can produce the same growth rates and coloration as properly configured T5s or MH.

6. Read up on the process for cycling your first tank. Just be aware that you will most likely spend a month with only water, rocks, and sand in your tank. You can use the salad shrimp technique, or a damsel. I use a couple of damsels, but beware - they are the Oakland Raider fans of the fish world. Once you put other peaceful fish in your tank, the damsels may terrorize them. And the little buggers are VERY hard to catch.

** A rebuttal on the test kits - API kits are ok for freshwater, but for saltwater, you would be well advised to go with Salifert or ELOS. I prefer ELOS. For Ammonia and Nitrite, get the cheaper API kits, because you won't be testing for these too often after your initial tank cycle. After the cycle, you can test for pH, PO4, kH, Mg, Ca with ELOS kits.

I'm getting long-winded, so if PM me if you have any questions about setup, equipment or livestock selection, or tank cycling. I'll be happy to help. My intention when starting the thread reply was to merely make the recommendation that you consider a marine aquarium - the challenge and reward is worth it.