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-   -   ****The Official Save Our Chiefs Movement Thread**** (https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=264510)

mdchiefsfan 12-17-2012 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater (Post 9219733)
Wha? It's the same group four years older and minus Brandon Carr.

I would say our oline is better, with Breaston and Bowe our wr core is better. LJ isn't the rb anymore. We have two pass rushers as opposed to just Hali, who improved as a player in the 3-4 implemented in 09. There aren't any areas our team is worse than it was in 09 except for the secondary.

RunKC 12-17-2012 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan (Post 9219698)
Not to mention we have a better core group of players than we had in 09 to offer.

Only reason I want someone in here asap is I want someone to be discussing things with Albert and Bowe so we don't lose some of the important parts of that core.

Let's put it this way: if Cowher is hired and he tells Bowe he's gonna draft a QB, Bowe would be a goddamn moron to not want to be here.

Manila-Chief 12-17-2012 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry (Post 9219580)
What young QB has Gruden developed?

Sorry, didn't mean to infer that he has developed a young QB. In spite of the QB, he went to a SB in Oakland with Cannon and won one with Brad Johnson. He is an offensive minded coach, and I think that will be better for a young QB than a defensive guy. I know "talking heads" most of the time are just that ... talking ... but, his QB sessions for ESPN ... seems to indicate he knows a little about QB's.

I'm not pushing Gruden. Just saying I'd prefer him over Cowher.

I'd like a young coach that will be around for a very long time (meaning we will be winning a lot of games). But, how many first time coaches even survive for a few years? For every Jim & John Harbaugh or Sean Payton there are a bunch of Haley's, Josh McDaniels, Steve Spagnuolo, Tony Sporano, or Jack Del Rio.

Maybe the good news is that Clark now has experience of doing this and he will have learned via the process.

SAUTO 12-17-2012 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry (Post 9219580)
What young QB has Gruden developed?

Thank you. **** gruden right along with Andy Reid
Posted via Mobile Device

ILChief 12-17-2012 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manila-Chief (Post 9219772)
Sorry, didn't mean to infer that he has developed a young QB. In spite of the QB, he went to a SB in Oakland with Cannon and won one with Brad Johnson. He is an offensive minded coach, and I think that will be better for a young QB than a defensive guy. I know "talking heads" most of the time are just that ... talking ... but, his QB sessions for ESPN ... seems to indicate he knows a little about QB's.

I'm not pushing Gruden. Just saying I'd prefer him over Cowher.

I'd like a young coach that will be around for a very long time (meaning we will be winning a lot of games). But, how many first time coaches even survive for a few years? For every Jim & John Harbaugh or Sean Payton there are a bunch of Haley's, Josh McDaniels, Steve Spagnuolo, Tony Sporano, or Jack Del Rio.

Maybe the good news is that Clark now has experience of doing this and he will have learned via the process.

He didn't take Oakland to a Super Bowl, he beat them in the super bowl

DeezNutz 12-17-2012 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan (Post 9219754)
I would say our oline is better, with Breaston and Bowe our wr core is better. LJ isn't the rb anymore. We have two pass rushers as opposed to just Hali, who improved as a player in the 3-4 implemented in 09. There aren't any areas our team is worse than it was in 09 except for the secondary.

Disagree.

Pioli has done absolutely nothing to improve the team, aside from Houston.

The offensive line is still fine. Defensive line still cannot stop the run, and all of our best players are Herm holdovers, now 4 years older. Pioli simply couldn't be any worse at his job.

But at least he's an asshole about it, so there's that.

Manila-Chief 12-17-2012 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILChief (Post 9219788)
He didn't take Oakland to a Super Bowl, he beat them in the super bowl

Thanks for the correction ... Oakland got beat in the AFC championship game.

Hammock Parties 12-17-2012 10:21 PM

Why would Cowher care about total control. That's the demand of a person who's trying to build a reputation. Cowher's rep is solid. If he comes here he won't be a tyrant...it's not his personality anyway.

Hammock Parties 12-17-2012 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz (Post 9219809)
Disagree.

Pioli has done absolutely nothing to improve the team, aside from Houston.

The offensive line is still fine.

Pioli has done a good job with the OL IMO.

Next year it's really gonna come together.

Albert, Allen, Hudson, Asamoah and Winston are gonna kick ass.

Hammock Parties 12-17-2012 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 9219115)
50 years of NFL history says that Bill Cowher will not win a SB in KC.

No HC has ever won a SB on 2 different teams.

What if Cowher was GM, though?

I'd be more on board with that than HC.

O.city 12-17-2012 10:27 PM

I think if he were to come here, he's coming as HC, with him and Clark picking the GM best fit to work with him.


Which is a sweet relief, because that doesn't seem to have been happening.

O.city 12-17-2012 10:44 PM

Clay, how would you feel about

Cowher as HC
Rex as DC
Wiz as OC

Hammock Parties 12-17-2012 11:06 PM

No, I don't want Cowher as HC.

Dave Lane 12-17-2012 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning (Post 9220025)
No, I don't want Cowher as HC.

Cowher > Fisher. Still not sure I want.

Hammock Parties 12-17-2012 11:46 PM

I'm far more apt to see him become our GM, because that way his conservaderp methods can't infect the team on gameday.

DaneMcCloud 12-17-2012 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 9219155)
How many of those coaches have had a franchise QB at the second stop?


I know Parcells never did, cause he's a ****ing bafoon who thought Jake Long was a first overall pick when they didn't have a QB.

Bledsoe

DaneMcCloud 12-17-2012 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 9219152)
Parcels, vermeil, Seifert, Holmgren, Shanahan, those are the ones I can think of immediately.

Lombardi

DaneMcCloud 12-17-2012 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 9219166)
I think a lot of them become convinced that they were far more responsible for winning than they actually were. They become more decisive which leads to amplifying mistakes and the like.

It's why dick vermeil thought he could win without a defense and parcels thought he could win with Tony Romo.

Parcells won with Simms. He won with Hostetler. He went to a Super Bowl with Bledsoe. He went to an AFC Championship Game with Testaverde. He believed in Pennington so much that he hired him as starter in two different cities in the same division.

He only believed in Romo for 1.5 seasons. Had he stayed, maybe Romo would have won something but most likely not.

The thing to keep in mind is that it's not only a game on the field, it's a game everywhere else.

It's all a big ****ing game and these guys couldn't care less about the city or the fans.

If Romo wins a Super Bowl, there will be an interview with Parcells stating "That's MY guy".

The Rick 12-18-2012 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo's Pelini (Post 9218999)
So Clark is trying to get Cowher? Interesting. I'd imagine you'll have to pay him 7-8 mil a year.

Not possible. I was told on ChiefsPlanet that Clark is a cheapskate.

DaneMcCloud 12-18-2012 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rick (Post 9220108)
Not possible. I was told on ChiefsPlanet that Clark is a cheapskate.

Prove that Clark isn't cheap.

Thanks in advance.

Hammock Parties 12-18-2012 12:08 AM

Clark is probably less cheap than you imagine since everyone is getting fired soon.

It'd be easy for him to save money by maintaining status quo.

Titty Meat 12-18-2012 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 9219154)
It's not that he couldn't. It's that it's very very unlikely.

There's a double standard here that people aren't realizing.

If we are willing to throw out history and hire Cowher, why do we need a 1st round QB? Might as well roll with Stanzi and defy history multiple times.

The problem with this argument is

A) Cowher is a capable HC.

B) Stanzi isn't an NFL QB.

Mother****erJones 12-18-2012 12:30 AM

To make money ya gota spend money. Can Pioli, let RAC bow out. Then go all out for a great HC. Im totally fine with Cowher or Gruden. I want a coach that will give a team some attitude and confidence.

Hammock Parties 12-18-2012 12:55 AM

Pioli Doc updated with the following bolds.

Quote:

1. Chiefs record under Scott Pioli: 23-40 (includes playoff loss).

This is the worst record for a GM in Chiefs history.
Jim Schaaf: .387 (1976-1988)
Scott Pioli: .365 (2009-2012)
Quote:

4. Chiefs have lost by 14 or more points under Scott Pioli 22 times in 63 games.


The Pioli regime, to date, features 63 games.

We have lost by 14 or more points in 22 of those games. That is 34.9 percent.

That means MORE than 1/3 of the time, Scott Pioli's Chiefs teams get their butts kicked.

Blowout losses (14+) by year

2009: 5
2010: 4
2011: 5
2012: 8 (with more to come, betcha betcha)
Editor's note: Pioli's Chiefs have 23 wins and 22 losses by 14 or more points. That's funny.

teedubya 12-18-2012 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guru (Post 9215233)
the Chiefs will fire Pioli tomorrow and the world will end on Friday. Fitting really.

:cuss:

jaa1025 12-18-2012 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 9220113)
Prove that Clark isn't cheap.

Thanks in advance.


Fired Carl Peterson, Herman Edwards and the rest of the coaching staff
Hired Scott Pioli to a rumored "richest gm contract ever" or something like that.
Hired the #1 OC in Weis to essentially HC money
Hired the #1 DC in RAC to essentially HC money
Paid off Haley, Chan Gailey (am I missing someone, seems there has been more turnaround)
Is about to fire Pioli (very $$$) and RAC + Staff if the rumors are true.
Will hire new GM and coaching staff and hopefully it's a homerun.

I don't think he's been cheap in FA or hiring a coach last year worth a damn or refused to give the money to resign Carr as much as no one wants to come here because of Pioli and the situation he's caused.
--Carr was rumored to want out badly.
--Bowe was rumored to want out badly until he publicly stated otherwise...yeah, don't really believe that he wants to stay.
--Albert will probably leave if tagged.
--Fisher rumored to walk out of the interview with Pioli
--Manning wanted no part of KC, likely because he knew...as everyone does...that this situation is toxic.

mdchiefsfan 12-18-2012 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz (Post 9219809)
Disagree.

Pioli has done absolutely nothing to improve the team, aside from Houston.

The offensive line is still fine. Defensive line still cannot stop the run, and all of our best players are Herm holdovers, now 4 years older. Pioli simply couldn't be any worse at his job.

But at least he's an asshole about it, so there's that.

LMAO

There are two areas I want to see improved before I declare our talent a bust. I want to see how they perform with a legit HC and I would like to see some team leaders brought in. Hopefully the new QB will come in and take that position with the offense, but we need to bring a guy in defensively that will make these players more accountable and keep them motivated. It is painfully obvious that DJ and Hali are not those guys.

It is also very apparent that this team quit less than half way into the season. That kind of thing just doesn't happen with the two things mentioned above. But this issue means one of two things: we lack all around leadership or we have a team full of pussies. I am inclined to believe the former.

kcxiv 12-18-2012 04:19 AM

still will never forget when they asked Pioli why Peyton's team never called him back. He was like i have no idea and the look on his face. I know there is video out there of it somewhere.

oldman 12-18-2012 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdchiefsfan (Post 9220284)
LMAO

There are two areas I want to see improved before I declare our talent a bust. I want to see how they perform with a legit HC and I would like to see some team leaders brought in. Hopefully the new QB will come in and take that position with the offense, but we need to bring a guy in defensively that will make these players more accountable and keep them motivated. It is painfully obvious that DJ and Hali are not those guys.

It is also very apparent that this team quit less than half way into the season. That kind of thing just doesn't happen with the two things mentioned above. But this issue means one of two things: we lack all around leadership or we have a team full of pussies. I am inclined to believe the former.

That's why I'm pretty OK with Cowher and, to some extent, Gruden. We need our identity back, Arrowhead needs to be a place the other team fears. I'm not saying bring back Marty-ball, but bring back that buckle your chinstrap attitude. We've tried quick-strike finese, we've tried whatever Herm brought, and then a host of other things and they didn't work. So what did work? You got it, hard-nosed football.

mdchiefsfan 12-18-2012 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldman (Post 9220311)
That's why I'm pretty OK with Cowher and, to some extent, Gruden. We need our identity back, Arrowhead needs to be a place the other team fears. I'm not saying bring back Marty-ball, but bring back that buckle your chinstrap attitude. We've tried quick-strike finese, we've tried whatever Herm brought, and then a host of other things and they didn't work. So what did work? You got it, hard-nosed football.

I'm reserved on Cowher, though, I prefer him over the Polians. I would rather take a shot at Tom Gamble from SF and see what he can do.

I get the inherent risk of giving a new guy a shot at something as important as GM, especially since he must be hands on, but that is why I really like Tom Gamble.

The man has done it all: college scouting, pro scouting, contract negotiations, and even has some coaching background. This man knows football. What man could let Clark enjoy soccer without a care in the world, better than this one?

soopamanluva 12-18-2012 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaa1025 (Post 9220222)
Fired Carl Peterson, Herman Edwards and the rest of the coaching staff
Hired Scott Pioli to a rumored "richest gm contract ever" or something like that.
Hired the #1 OC in Weis to essentially HC money
Hired the #1 DC in RAC to essentially HC money
Paid off Haley, Chan Gailey (am I missing someone, seems there has been more turnaround)
Is about to fire Pioli (very $$$) and RAC + Staff if the rumors are true.
Will hire new GM and coaching staff and hopefully it's a homerun.

I don't think he's been cheap in FA or hiring a coach last year worth a damn or refused to give the money to resign Carr as much as no one wants to come here because of Pioli and the situation he's caused.
--Carr was rumored to want out badly.
--Bowe was rumored to want out badly until he publicly stated otherwise...yeah, don't really believe that he wants to stay.
--Albert will probably leave if tagged.
--Fisher rumored to walk out of the interview with Pioli
--Manning wanted no part of KC, likely because he knew...as everyone does...that this situation is toxic.

Never paid Haley.....

mdchiefsfan 12-18-2012 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soopamanluva (Post 9220335)
Never paid Haley.....

Could have been Pioli's doing.

007 12-18-2012 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teedubya (Post 9220211)
:cuss:

You have to admit it would be just our luck.

Mr. Flopnuts 12-18-2012 07:56 AM

I truly, and honestly don't give a shit who we hire. Don't care, at all. Cowher, Shanahan, Gruden, all names I've kind of thought were shitty in the past, all look pretty damned good now. Mother**** you, Scott Pioli.

007 12-18-2012 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Flopnuts (Post 9220397)
I truly, and honestly don't give a shit who we hire. Don't care, at all. Cowher, Shanahan, Gruden, all names I've kind of thought were shitty in the past, all look pretty damned good now. Mother**** you, Scott Pioli.

THIS

mdchiefsfan 12-18-2012 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Flopnuts (Post 9220397)
I truly, and honestly don't give a shit who we hire. Don't care, at all. Cowher, Shanahan, Gruden, all names I've kind of thought were shitty in the past, all look pretty damned good now. Mother**** you, Scott Pioli.

LMAO I guess the new slogan can be:

MOTHER**** YOU, SCOTT! :cuss:

Mr. Flopnuts 12-18-2012 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Flopnuts (Post 9220397)
I truly, and honestly don't give a shit who we hire. Don't care, at all. Cowher, Shanahan, Gruden, all names I've kind of thought were shitty in the past, all look pretty damned good now. Mother**** you, Scott Pioli.

That said, I'd still like to see us hire Bruce Arians.

Buehler445 12-18-2012 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 9218901)
Once again, other than placating a bunch of impatient fans, what USEFUL purpose does it serve?

He doesn't want to screw up next year by getting all the players excited about change - it's the same craziness that led to Romeo Crennel being hired as head coach.

There's NO REASON to make changes now. NONE, NADA, ZILCH

I'm not trying to start a war, but I think if you fire Pioli, it gives you more time to court your next GM. Maybe he's already doing that. Is it like coaches where you can't talk until after the season? Either way, there's no reason to keep Pioli if it inhibits you in any way from getting your guy.

I said long ago that if it were me, I'd have fired his ass around week 6, told Donovan to give Bowe whatever the **** he wants, and went out and found my guy.

But maybe since there is two weeks left, there isn't anything to gain from doing it now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler (Post 9218948)
IMHO if the goal is to draft a young QB #1 then I would rather have a young coach to grow with that QB not an old coach looking for a pay day and who will be here just 3-4 years.

I'm with Dirk. Keep Cowher the **** out of KC. And Cowher as GM? Does he even know anything about being a GM?

And why the **** are we talking about finding a coach first? Hire a good GM, let him hire the coach. There has to be some cohesiveness there. They have to be able to find synergy between personnel decisions and scheme. It just has to be that way. Find the right GM, he'll find the right coach.

htismaqe 12-18-2012 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soopamanluva (Post 9220335)
Never paid Haley.....

Pioli pays the coach, he's their boss. Pioli fired him WITH CAUSE and therefore is not entitled to any present or future compensation.

100% Pioli.

htismaqe 12-18-2012 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445 (Post 9220510)
I'm not trying to start a war, but I think if you fire Pioli, it gives you more time to court your next GM. Maybe he's already doing that. Is it like coaches where you can't talk until after the season? Either way, there's no reason to keep Pioli if it inhibits you in any way from getting your guy.

There's also no reason to fire him if it doesn't inhibit you from getting your guy. Clark has reportedly already been interviewing and meeting with candidates, so it appears that the presence of Pioli has no effect whatsoever on the process of hiring the next guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445 (Post 9220510)
But maybe since there is two weeks left, there isn't anything to gain from doing it now.

After week 10 or so, there was nothing to gain from doing it in-season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445 (Post 9220510)
And why the **** are we talking about finding a coach first? Hire a good GM, let him hire the coach. There has to be some cohesiveness there. They have to be able to find synergy between personnel decisions and scheme. It just has to be that way. Find the right GM, he'll find the right coach.

We've tried letting GM hire the coach. It hasn't worked. We need a different arrangement, more like Marty had with Carl where they were peers. Giving complete control to one guy does not work.

htismaqe 12-18-2012 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo's Pelini (Post 9220130)
The problem with this argument is

A) Cowher is a capable HC.

B) Stanzi isn't an NFL QB.

Completely irrelevant.

Parcells, Vermeil, and Seifert were all capable HC - HoF material even - and they couldn't do it.

htismaqe 12-18-2012 08:56 AM

The eternal optimist, NFL cheerleader, and most conservative football talking head there is, Kevin Harlan, sounds like he feels Pioli is done.

Best sign yet.

Of course, he went on to say there wasn't a franchise QB available in the upcoming draft...

Mr. Flopnuts 12-18-2012 09:02 AM

I'm with htis on all of this. It makes NO sense to fire him now. There isn't any one player to appease like Cam Newton in Carolina. Let Pioli own this entire season of shit, and move on with a #1 pick, and a fresh regime.

But I know it's not patience that is the issue, it's fear. Don't let it consume you. Pioli, Rac, Daboll, and Cassel are ****ing out of here in less than 2 weeks. Take it to the bank.

Buehler445 12-18-2012 09:05 AM

You're probably right on the firing Pioli stuff, I just wanted to throw it out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 9220544)
We've tried letting GM hire the coach. It hasn't worked. We need a different arrangement, more like Marty had with Carl where they were peers. Giving complete control to one guy does not work.

I don't think that them being forced to be peers by ownership is the right call.

I think you just hire a GM that isn't a ****ing pile of mother****ing **** juice mixed with runny dog shit and firmed up with puss from a festering rat plague boil.

If you get a GM that isn't an egomaniac control freak and understands the importance of a good coach and doesn't just try to execute some dumbass system where he tries to be the smartest guy in the room, they should get along OK. Are there any other cases where a coach is forced on a GM?

Dayze 12-18-2012 09:10 AM

bring in Trent Green as OC.

htismaqe 12-18-2012 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445 (Post 9220576)
I don't think that them being forced to be peers by ownership is the right call.

I think you just hire a GM that isn't a ****ing pile of mother****ing **** juice mixed with runny dog shit and firmed up with puss from a festering rat plague boil.

If you get a GM that isn't an egomaniac control freak and understands the importance of a good coach and doesn't just try to execute some dumbass system where he tries to be the smartest guy in the room, they should get along OK. Are there any other cases where a coach is forced on a GM?

It takes a certain kind of person to be an NFL head coach or NFL GM. I think they are INHERENTLY egomaniacs.

It's purely Machiavellian - absolute power corrupts absolutely.

You could bring in anybody you want but the minute you give him complete control, things get skewed. Maybe not to Pioli levels but they still get skewed.

The coach and GM HAVE to at least be peers or it is ultimately doomed to fail.

O.city 12-18-2012 11:00 AM

IMO, if Clark wants to be the type of owner we have all talked about, you can't have someone with absolute power, as we've seen what can happen.


Therefor, you bring in a HC and a GM, tell them "damn it, you two are gonna work together and we're gonna get this right" and roll from there.

Easy 6 12-18-2012 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning (Post 9219901)
Pioli has done a good job with the OL IMO.

Next year it's really gonna come together.

Albert, Allen, Hudson, Asamoah and Winston are gonna kick ass.

They're better than advertised, i'll agree on that.

But how are the fade able to chew them up every single time? they never fail to get abused against them, pathetic displays every time.

bevischief 12-18-2012 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scott free (Post 9220948)
They're better than advertised, i'll agree on that.

But how are the fade able to chew them up every single time? they never fail to get abused against them, pathetic displays every time.

They have given up this year the faiders haven't.

patteeu 12-18-2012 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 9220793)
It takes a certain kind of person to be an NFL head coach or NFL GM. I think they are INHERENTLY egomaniacs.

I think that's right. IMO, Pioli's personality failure (as opposed to his job performance failures) was insecurity, not ego. If he had the confidence to let his coach coach and to let his coach and players interact with the public like normal human beings instead of putting the organization on lockdown, he would have been a lot more likable.

Hammock Parties 12-18-2012 11:07 AM

Well, Allen is a rookie who has been getting abused (showed improvement before Raiders game), Stephenson clearly isn't ready, and Lilja always gets raped by Oakland.

So that's 3 positions that will be different next year.

O.city 12-18-2012 11:17 AM

I would also question the fact that against Oakland, when they were beating us inside, we kept running the ball where? You guessed it, inside.

patteeu 12-18-2012 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 9220934)
IMO, if Clark wants to be the type of owner we have all talked about, you can't have someone with absolute power, as we've seen what can happen.


Therefor, you bring in a HC and a GM, tell them "damn it, you two are gonna work together and we're gonna get this right" and roll from there.

I don't agree at all. CEOs with what you're calling "absolute power" run large organizations all over our country. It's the standard organizational model. IMO, it's a lot better to have one person in charge than it is to expect two to work together without one being able to have the final say. Ideally, the person in charge will be good at accepting input and forming consensus within the leadership of the organization but someone has to make the final decision. It can be the GM or the HC, but someone has to be the final say unless the owner is willing to referee disagreements.

I don't know who it was that said that Carl and Marty were peers, but that wasn't the case. Carl was the boss for most of their time together. Marty was reportedly given greater control over personnel at the end, but it's not clear to me what the arrangement was and it certainly didn't improve the product on the field.

patteeu 12-18-2012 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 9221003)
I would also question the fact that against Oakland, when they were beating us inside, we kept running the ball where? You guessed it, inside.

Yeah, that seemed weird to me.

O.city 12-18-2012 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 9221009)
I don't agree at all. CEOs with what you're calling "absolute power" run large organizations all over our country. It's the standard organizational model. IMO, it's a lot better to have one person in charge than it is to expect two to work together without one being able to have the final say. Ideally, the person in charge will be good at accepting input and forming consensus within the leadership of the organization but someone has to make the final decision. It can be the GM or the HC, but someone has to be the final say unless the owner is willing to referee disagreements.

I don't know who it was that said that Carl and Marty were peers, but that wasn't the case. Carl was the boss for most of their time together. Marty was reportedly given greater control over personnel at the end, but it's not clear to me what the arrangement was and it certainly didn't improve the product on the field.

I think you kind of took my statement wrong, or I phrased it a little wrong.


The GM will make the personnel decisions, based on what the coach inputs to him that he wants and what he then thinks is the best. We have a huge disconnect here in that our current GM makes decisions seemingly not caring what the coach wants and what HE along thinks is best.

The NFL is a little different than big business, but you are right in that one guy will make the decision.

Buehler445 12-18-2012 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 9220793)
It takes a certain kind of person to be an NFL head coach or NFL GM. I think they are INHERENTLY egomaniacs.

It's purely Machiavellian - absolute power corrupts absolutely.

You could bring in anybody you want but the minute you give him complete control, things get skewed. Maybe not to Pioli levels but they still get skewed.

The coach and GM HAVE to at least be peers or it is ultimately doomed to fail.

:spock:

Meh, I don't know about all of that. In just about every organization ever, there's been a boss and a subordinate. And from a technical perspective, the GM is the boss. Because he's the manager. He's no different than a CEO is the boss of the COO CFO and whatever other divisions there are. If the GM is worth a ****, he'll let the coach coach, just like the CEO lets the CFO and COO run their business.

IMO, it is no different than a CEO. In order to be successful the GM needs to
  • Put his coach in a position to succeed (players, contracts, etc)
  • Allow him to be a manager (don't meddle like that cocksucking Pioli)
  • Hold them accountable for results over what they have control over.
  • Work together amicably.

All of which is like any other manager in the country. And there are good managers and shitty managers. Pioli was (you see what I did there, "was" :D) a shitty manager.

I don't think it is wise to force a coach on a GM. Translated to the business world, that's like being a manager over someone you can't fire. That's not good for anybody.

O.city 12-18-2012 11:45 AM

The GM, once the season starts, should really have nothing to do with the gameday, football things. He brings the players in, then lets the coach coach.

patteeu 12-18-2012 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 9221022)
I think you kind of took my statement wrong, or I phrased it a little wrong.


The GM will make the personnel decisions, based on what the coach inputs to him that he wants and what he then thinks is the best. We have a huge disconnect here in that our current GM makes decisions seemingly not caring what the coach wants and what HE along thinks is best.

The NFL is a little different than big business, but you are right in that one guy will make the decision.

Sorry. I misunderstood. I'm OK with giving either of them final say over personnel, it just depends on who they are. If Clark wants a veteran coach (like Cowher), I'm more comfortable with the idea of hiring a GM who will serve the decision-making coach. If he's more inclined to get a first-time coach, I'm more inclined to prefer a GM who makes the decisions with input from the coach.

O.city 12-18-2012 12:00 PM

Yep, spot on there patteu.

We just have a huge void and problem with that right now, but it's about to be fixed.

htismaqe 12-18-2012 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445 (Post 9221045)
I don't think it is wise to force a coach on a GM. Translated to the business world, that's like being a manager over someone you can't fire. That's not good for anybody.

I'm not suggest your force a coach on the GM.

I'm suggesting the GM and head coach should be peers and work hand-in-hand.

To take your analogy further, Clark Hunt is the CEO. The GM is the CTO and the coach is the COO. The CTO creates the vision and acquires the "technical" pieces to accomplish the organizational vision. The COO carries out the plan and manages the operation. They're peers, independent and interdependent at the same time.

htismaqe 12-18-2012 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 9221114)
If Clark wants a veteran coach (like Cowher), I'm more comfortable with the idea of hiring a GM who will serve the decision-making coach. If he's more inclined to get a first-time coach, I'm more inclined to prefer a GM who makes the decisions with input from the coach.

Whoa. That's too reasonable. Get that outta here!

:D

Buehler445 12-18-2012 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 9221147)
I'm not suggest your force a coach on the GM.

I'm suggesting the GM and head coach should be peers and work hand-in-hand.

To take your analogy further, Clark Hunt is the CEO. The GM is the CTO and the coach is the COO. The CTO creates the vision and acquires the "technical" pieces to accomplish the organizational vision. The COO carries out the plan and manages the operation. They're peers, independent and interdependent at the same time.

I'm not disagreeing that they do markedly different tasks within the organization, but the fact is the GM hires the coach. I think what you are wanting is a GM who will let the coach coach. To that end I agree 100%. It is critical to the success of the organization that GM lets the coach do his job and not meddle like an obsessive ****.

I don't see any reason to believe Clark will now start hiring coaches to change that dynamic. And frankly, I don't think we want that. Clark isn't a football guy and doesn't immerse himself in the league enough to know the nuances between coaches, scheme, personnel, all that stuff. That'd be like me me picking drapes. I'm most likely to make a horrible decision. I may pick some out that strike some fancy with me, but the probability of them working with the design function of the room, or having any intrinsic functional use is low. I could luck out and make the right choice, but let's be real here. I'm gonna **** that up. Bad.

IMO, you pick a good GM. GM hires a good coach. Both do their jobs and work together. If a GM is incapable of that, he's not a good GM.

dirk digler 12-18-2012 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning (Post 9219901)
Pioli has done a good job with the OL IMO.

Next year it's really gonna come together.

Albert, Allen, Hudson, Asamoah and Winston are gonna kick ass.

I don't know about that it doesn't seem they can pass block very well

O.city 12-18-2012 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler (Post 9221196)
I don't know about that it doesn't seem they can pass block very well

I think that has a little more to do with who's taking the snap, than who's giving it.

Hammock Parties 12-18-2012 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler (Post 9221196)
I don't know about that it doesn't seem they can pass block very well

Albert, Hudson, Asamoah and Winston are all excellent pass blockers.

Stephenson, Allen, and Lilja have not been this year, and weren't Sunday.

the Talking Can 12-18-2012 12:27 PM

are we there yet?

dirk digler 12-18-2012 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu (Post 9221009)
I don't agree at all. CEOs with what you're calling "absolute power" run large organizations all over our country. It's the standard organizational model. IMO, it's a lot better to have one person in charge than it is to expect two to work together without one being able to have the final say. Ideally, the person in charge will be good at accepting input and forming consensus within the leadership of the organization but someone has to make the final decision. It can be the GM or the HC, but someone has to be the final say unless the owner is willing to referee disagreements.

I don't know who it was that said that Carl and Marty were peers, but that wasn't the case. Carl was the boss for most of their time together. Marty was reportedly given greater control over personnel at the end, but it's not clear to me what the arrangement was and it certainly didn't improve the product on the field.

Yep. Carl had pretty much total power and the way Clark wants to run the team he is going to hire another GM and give them total power. I honestly don't see that changing.

dirk digler 12-18-2012 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 9221205)
I think that has a little more to do with who's taking the snap, than who's giving it.

Somewhat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning (Post 9221214)
Albert, Hudson, Asamoah and Winston are all excellent pass blockers.

Stephenson, Allen, and Lilja have not been this year, and weren't Sunday.

I will take your word for it.

htismaqe 12-18-2012 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445 (Post 9221175)
I think what you are wanting is a GM who will let the coach coach.

I want a GM who is going to allow the coach to have SIGNIFICANT input into personnel decisions and actually consider that input when it comes to player acquisition.

Buehler445 12-18-2012 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 9221259)
I want a GM who is going to allow the coach to have SIGNIFICANT input into personnel decisions and actually consider that input when it comes to player acquisition.

Right. And if a GM doesn't do that, he's a bad GM. That doesn't necessarily mean Clark should force the GM and coach to structurally be peers. The GM can still have "absolute power" as you say, meaning he makes the decisions and is actually the boss over the coach. If he disregards what the coach says, he's a shit GM.

Look at it this way. Pioli is a shit GM. If Clark came in and structurally changed things to where they were peers, he'd still be a shit GM. The problem is we have a shit GM, not because the structure is bad.

Hammock Parties 12-18-2012 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirk digler (Post 9221237)
Somewhat.



I will take your word for it.

Dude, just watch any of the games before Hudson got hurt.

This line has been fine for two years from a pass blocking standpoint outside guys like Richardson, and Lilja/Wiegmann getting raped by Oakland.

The QBs make them look at a lot worse.

DeezNutz 12-18-2012 01:39 PM

We must go HC first because we cannot allow a dipshit GM to force talent that isn't good enough or doesn't fit a system onto the coaching the staff.

Buehler445 12-18-2012 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz (Post 9221463)
We must go HC first because we cannot allow a dipshit GM to force talent that isn't good enough or doesn't fit a system onto the coaching the staff.

In my eyes, the key remains to hire a good GM. If he does all the things you're suggesting, he's a shit GM. He wil continue to make shit GM personnel decisions that will hurt the team. We need to avoid getting a shit GM. And let the Non-shit GM go find a good coach.

O.city 12-18-2012 11:11 PM

I'm starting to think it's gonna be a fairly big name guy, Clark will have to pay, but I think he wants to win 1a but bring the fans back in full force 1b.

Titty Meat 12-19-2012 01:35 AM

Yeah it's going to be Bill Polian. LaCanFora is hardly ever wrong.

mdchiefsfan 12-19-2012 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning (Post 9221293)
Dude, just watch any of the games before Hudson got hurt.

This line has been fine for two years from a pass blocking standpoint outside guys like Richardson, and Lilja/Wiegmann getting raped by Oakland.

The QBs make them look at a lot worse.

I haven't read this whole thread so I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but even Winston made mention of how much harder Cassel made it for the tackles by not stepping up in the pocket.

AussieChiefsFan 12-19-2012 04:49 AM

Some people will probably be wearing back off their own merit this sunday, but is the Blackout officially continuing?

ILChief 12-19-2012 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo's Pelini (Post 9223110)
Yeah it's going to be Bill Polian. LaCanFora is hardly ever wrong.

I just hope he wouldn't hire Jim Caldwell as coach

007 12-19-2012 06:16 AM

I want to see another GM whose last name starts with a P about as much as I want to see another USC QB.

mdchiefsfan 12-19-2012 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guru (Post 9223190)
I want to see another GM whose last name starts with a P about as much as I want to see another USC QB.

LMAO


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