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ClevelandBronco 11-13-2012 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 9117094)
Love a good sense of humor.


As far as I know there isn't a single German mascot or icon. When you look at just how many krauts there are in this country that's crazy.

I mean "The Fighting Irish?" Really? The Germans helped launch 2 world wars for ****'s sake.

Time to hit the interwebnets...I want a good racist German mascot...
I think that this one didn't last:

http://chronicle.com/img/photos/biz/Nicholls3.jpg

Rain Man 11-13-2012 10:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicHef (Post 9116142)
This seems like as good a place as any to leave this:

http://www.cracked.com/article_19864...g-america.html

I'm a big fan of cracked.com. Best damn journalists on the planet.

ThaVirus 11-13-2012 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries Walker (Post 9110806)
Here's how you can tell if Native Americans have it worse than any other ethnic group.

A. Check out Chief Wahoo, the mascot of the Cleveland Indians.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001..._7_xlarge.jpeg

Now imagine it as black, Latino, Asian, Jewish, Arabic, or any other nationality in the world. How do you think members of that nationality would react?

B. Consider the name "Redskins". As above, apply it to any other, using an equivalent term. How long would it take before the corporate headquarters was stormed?

C. Imagine if this thread was about blacks, Latinos, Asians, Jews, Arabs, or any other nationality. How would it have gone over if the equivalent of any of these were said about them?









D. Imagine a black, Latino, Asian, Jew or Arab wanting to return to his homeland - to see the heritage of his ancestors, to meet the people descended from their common origins, to see the land from which his family came. Now imagine a Native American wanting to do the same. He can't, because you're standing on it.

E. Imagine if you were a Native American. Imagine growing up on a reservation, where your people were herded centuries ago, and living your whole life in probably the most rampant poverty in the nation. Imagine hearing your grandparents tell of when the schoolteachers would beat them with sticks if they displayed their cultural heritage at all, and seeing the faces of the leaders of the people who victimized you for years blasted into the rock wall of your holy land, to great acclaim. Imagine growing up seeing your people depicted in the movies by Italians and Spaniards, and reading all about European heroes and explorers in history class, but hearing names like Massasoit, Chief Joseph, Opchanacanough, Black Elk, Sequoyah, and Mankiller only at home. Imagine living with this every day of your life, watching the grand history of all of your people vanish by inches from the only place on Earth where it exists, and see anyone who stands up to fight for it dismissed as a drunk, an idiot, or a drunken idiot. Now imagine that one of the few sacred cultural symbols you have left is glamorized and propped on the head of a white runway model in a fashion show.

Sure, there are Natives with a giant chip on their shoulder against white people. There are a lot of them. There are also a lot of white people with giant chips on their shoulders against Natives (some of them in this very thread). Who do you think is more justified in having that chip? And regardless, is it fair to color an entire race of people based only on the ones you stumble across in a Flagstaff 7-11?

Last thing, I promise: In rereading what I just wrote, it occurs to me that this post, while true, is also a preachy, depressing, pompous bloviation on my part. Sorry about that. By way of atonement, I offer you this YouTube about Joe Medicine Crow, a war hero and inspiration, in an effort to temper this atrocity of a post. Enjoy.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/O_9-arto8D8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Pretty good post.

ThaVirus 11-14-2012 11:19 AM
Is that Cracked.com site factual?

vailpass 11-14-2012 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ (Post 9117089)
I am offended by the people who are offended by people who are offended.
LMAO

listopencil 11-14-2012 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaVirus (Post 9118242)
Is that Cracked.com site factual?
Follow the links. I'm fond of Mesa Verde myself.

http://www.empoweringparks.com/Mesa-...f-Palace-2.jpg

vailpass 11-14-2012 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil (Post 9118338)
Follow the links. I'm fond of Mesa Verde myself.

http://www.empoweringparks.com/Mesa-...f-Palace-2.jpg
Yeah. Folks took us there when we were kids, couldn't believe it was real.
Those people lived up so high. How they hell could they have made that by hand? So cool.

listopencil 11-14-2012 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9118340)
Yeah. Folks took us there when we were kids, couldn't believe it was real.
Those people lived up so high. How they hell could they have made that by hand? So cool.
My dad took me up there as a teen. It's an incredible experience. Especially if you've been spoon fed "history" like I was as a child. Here is this city created in a cliff. As complex as a European castle. Built by "savages."

MagicHef 11-14-2012 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaVirus (Post 9118242)
Is that Cracked.com site factual?
You can check their references yourself, they cite basically every non-opinion thing they claim. One of their references is a resolution passed by congress recognizing the influence of the Iroquois Confederacy on the US Constitution.

ThaVirus 11-14-2012 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil (Post 9118338)
Follow the links. I'm fond of Mesa Verde myself.
I did and it seemed factual but I noticed it was a humor site so I had to ask.

I found the bit about the Vikings interesting. I had heard they had sailed to Nova Scotia as early as 1200 AD but never heard of any encounters with the natives, and definitely not as early as 960 AD.

There just so much information, and with that misinformation, out there. I wish I could know it all!

listopencil 11-14-2012 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaVirus (Post 9118465)
I did and it seemed factual but I noticed it was a humor site so I had to ask.

I found the bit about the Vikings interesting. I had heard they had sailed to Nova Scotia as early as 1200 AD but never heard of any encounters with the natives, and definitely not as early as 960 AD.

There just so much information, and with that misinformation, out there. I wish I could know it all!
Leif Ericson.

ThaVirus 11-14-2012 01:27 PM
I wonder how things would have turned out had the Native Americans had resistances to Old World diseases.

The whole ordeal would have taken a lot longer, that's for sure. Assuming the tribes were able to band together for a common cause, we might have seen an infusion of white settlers into Native societies as opposed to what happened..

vailpass 11-14-2012 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil (Post 9118348)
My dad took me up there as a teen. It's an incredible experience. Especially if you've been spoon fed "history" like I was as a child. Here is this city created in a cliff. As complex as a European castle. Built by "savages."
Savages? I don't think anyone has said or thought that since the days of the Wild Wild West have they?

MagicHef 11-14-2012 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaVirus (Post 9118488)
I wonder how things would have turned out had the Native Americans had resistances to Old World diseases.

The whole ordeal would have taken a lot longer, that's for sure. Assuming the tribes were able to band together for a common cause, we might have seen an infusion of white settlers into Native societies as opposed to what happened..
White people in North America would be like white people in the other places England tried to expand into (India, China, Africa): a small minority.

listopencil 11-14-2012 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9118491)
Savages? I don't think anyone has said or thought that since the days of the Wild Wild West have they?
When I was a child the common thread was that these people were a small step above cavemen, and benefited greatly from our civilizing influence.

vailpass 11-14-2012 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicHef (Post 9118531)
White people in North America would be like white people in the other places England tried to expand into (India, China, Africa): a small minority.
Big difference between North America at the time and the others you name here.

MagicHef 11-14-2012 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9118536)
Big difference between North America at the time and the others you name here.
Yes, ~90% of the people in North America had just been wiped out by the worst plague in human history. That didn't happen in India, China, or Africa.

vailpass 11-14-2012 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil (Post 9118535)
When I was a child the common thread was that these people were a small step above cavemen, and benefited greatly from our civilizing influence.
That's horrible.

vailpass 11-14-2012 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicHef (Post 9118562)
Yes, ~90% of the people in North America had just been wiped out by the worst plague in human history. That didn't happen in India, China, or Africa.
What were the populations of those other three countries vs. NA?

Do you not agree that there are non-plague related reasons the natives in NA weren't equipped to resist colonization.

Bwana 11-14-2012 02:11 PM
Geez, they need to get a grip. :shake: Some people like to bitch, just to bitch.

MagicHef 11-14-2012 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9118581)
What were the populations of those other three countries vs. NA?

Do you not agree that there are non-plague related reasons the natives in NA weren't equipped to resist colonization.
From a quick Google search, so they may not be super accurate, but populations in 1600:

China: 231-250 million
India: 100 million
Africa: 50 million
North America: ~100 million (before plague)

Also, the English and the like had been trying to colonize North America for at least 150 years, and had failed. The Vikings had been trying for 500 years.

listopencil 11-14-2012 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9118573)
That's horrible.
Well, it could be regional. I was born in Virginia. We moved to Texas the Summer before I started elementary school, I did not go to kindergarten or day care. We moved back to Virginia the Summer before I started Jr. High School. I moved to Colorado during High School. I think that gave me an atypical education and made me more aware of prejudice that might otherwise have gone unnoticed.

Virginia: The Pilgrims created our country with the help of the Founding Fathers. Along the way we showed the Indians how to bathe and act like civilized men. Afterwards, the state of Virginia defeated the British.

Texas: Texas was already here. It's always been here. By the time the Easterners made it out this far we had already killed off all of our Indians and were busy eating cows and killing Spaniards/Mexicans.

Colorado: Well, yeah, what we did to the Indians was pretty ****ed up. But it's not like we're going to stop here and give all of their shit back. We kept some of their stuff around. You can go see it.

Frosty 11-14-2012 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil (Post 9118625)
Virginia: The Pilgrims created our country with the help of the Founding Fathers. Along the way we showed the Indians how to bathe and act like civilized men. Afterwards, the state of Virginia defeated the British.
The funny thing is that the English actually didn't believe in bathing then and the Natives thought they were disgusting.

listopencil 11-14-2012 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty (Post 9118640)
The funny thing is that the English actually didn't believe in bathing then and the Natives thought they were disgusting.
No, don't go introducing facts into history. You'll mess it up.

vailpass 11-14-2012 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil (Post 9118625)
Well, it could be regional. I was born in Virginia. We moved to Texas the Summer before I started elementary school, I did not go to kindergarten or day care. We moved back to Virginia the Summer before I started Jr. High School. I moved to Colorado during High School. I think that gave me an atypical education and made me more aware of prejudice that might otherwise have gone unnoticed.

Virginia: The Pilgrims created our country with the help of the Founding Fathers. Along the way we showed the Indians how to bathe and act like civilized men. Afterwards, the state of Virginia defeated the British.

Texas: Texas was already here. It's always been here. By the time the Easterners made it out this far we had already killed off all of our Indians and were busy eating cows and killing Spaniards/Mexicans.

Colorado: Well, yeah, what we did to the Indians was pretty ****ed up. But it's not like we're going to stop here and give all of their shit back. We kept some of their stuff around. You can go see it.
I can see how those viewpoints would have come about. Growing up in Iowa we had Indian (native american) influence all over. Lots of our towns, rivers, creeks, counties were named with Indian names. We went to Cherokee, IA to see the rain dancers. We grew up knowing and learning how resourceful a people the midwest Indian was; how large their culture was, how sad that they had gone.

vailpass 11-14-2012 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicHef (Post 9118598)
From a quick Google search, so they may not be super accurate, but populations in 1600:

China: 231-250 million
India: 100 million
Africa: 50 million
North America: ~100 million (before plague)

Also, the English and the like had been trying to colonize North America for at least 150 years, and had failed. The Vikings had been trying for 500 years.
90% of them had died prior to the arrival of the colonists?

listopencil 11-14-2012 02:30 PM
Man. I just vividly remembered an argument I had with one of my elementary school teachers. We had to memorize the state bird, flower, animal, etc. She told us it was illegal to pick Bluebonnets and I thought that was silly. That didn't go over well.

MagicHef 11-14-2012 02:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9118647)
90% of them had died prior to the arrival of the colonists?
Estimates seem to range from 90 to 95%.

http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/va.../smallpox.html

listopencil 11-14-2012 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9118645)
I can see how those viewpoints would have come about. Growing up in Iowa we had Indian (native american) influence all over. Lots of our towns, rivers, creeks, counties were named with Indian names. We went to Cherokee, IA to see the rain dancers. We grew up knowing and learning how resourceful a people the midwest Indian was; how large their culture was, how sad that they had gone.
It's sad that I didn't find out about my small amount of Native American heritage until I was a teenager. My grandmother mentioned it to me only once. When she left the room after explaining it (a lot of the "Indian Princess" stuff) my grandfather leaned over to me and mumbled, "Just another ****er."

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for multiculturalism, is it?

Frosty 11-14-2012 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil (Post 9118644)
No, don't go introducing facts into history. You'll mess it up.
True. When I was in school (PNW in the 70's), we were taught that Indians were nobel savages that revered and lived as one with nature. Then the greedy evil white man came in with their guns and smallpox and wiped most of them out. Turns out that it was a lot more complex than that.

1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus by Charles Mann is a good book on the subject.

vailpass 11-14-2012 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil (Post 9118659)
It's sad that I didn't find out about my small amount of Native American heritage until I was a teenager. My grandmother mentioned it to me only once. When she left the room after explaining it (a lot of the "Indian Princess" stuff) my grandfather leaned over to me and mumbled, "Just another ****er."

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for multiculturalism, is it?
LMAO

loochy 11-14-2012 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil (Post 9118659)
It's sad that I didn't find out about my small amount of Native American heritage until I was a teenager. My grandmother mentioned it to me only once. When she left the room after explaining it (a lot of the "Indian Princess" stuff) my grandfather leaned over to me and mumbled, "Just another ****er."

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for multiculturalism, is it?
a "what"er?

listopencil 11-14-2012 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loochy (Post 9118678)
a "what"er?
That particular slur is rightfully filtered. Use your imagination. Lucky for me that my uncle happens to be an archeologist so I was able to find out more.

Rain Man 11-14-2012 03:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicHef (Post 9118658)
Estimates seem to range from 90 to 95%.

http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/va.../smallpox.html

I think I mentioned this in a thread a while back, but the thing I don't get is why this was a one-way deal. Europeans show up and cough, and 90 million Native Americans start dying. But why didn't the Native Americans cough and kill all of the arriving Europeans?

And presumably no diseases went back to Europe with Columbus and John Smith and Verrazano and all those guys. Why not? Why didn't Europe take the same disease beatdown that the Native Americans took? Was it just sheer luck? Did the Viking expeditions somehow inoculate Europeans? And why didn't the Vikings start the North American plague? Or is it possible that something like the Black Plague was carried from America with the Vikings and nailed the white folk 200 years earlier?

listopencil 11-14-2012 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 9118731)
I think I mentioned this in a thread a while back, but the thing I don't get is why this was a one-way deal. Europeans show up and cough, and 90 million Native Americans start dying. But why didn't the Native Americans cough and kill all of the arriving Europeans?

And presumably no diseases went back to Europe with Columbus and John Smith and Verrazano and all those guys. Why not? Why didn't Europe take the same disease beatdown that the Native Americans took? Was it just sheer luck? Did the Viking expeditions somehow inoculate Europeans? And why didn't the Vikings start the North American plague? Or is it possible that something like the Black Plague was carried from America with the Vikings and nailed the white folk 200 years earlier?
The Europeans lived in cramped conditions with a long history of animal husbandry. They had already been through multiple plagues and represented, genetically, the survivors of those plagues.

Frosty 11-14-2012 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 9118731)
I think I mentioned this in a thread a while back, but the thing I don't get is why this was a one-way deal. Europeans show up and cough, and 90 million Native Americans start dying. But why didn't the Native Americans cough and kill all of the arriving Europeans?

And presumably no diseases went back to Europe with Columbus and John Smith and Verrazano and all those guys. Why not? Why didn't Europe take the same disease beatdown that the Native Americans took? Was it just sheer luck? Did the Viking expeditions somehow inoculate Europeans? And why didn't the Vikings start the North American plague? Or is it possible that something like the Black Plague was carried from America with the Vikings and nailed the white folk 200 years earlier?
Off the top of my head, the reason the NA's were so susceptible is because they were such a homogeneous group that they genetically weren't prepared to deal with the infections. Things that would just get a European under the weather could be devastating to NA's. More diverse groups like the Europeans were actually more susceptible to parasites.

Sorry for the shoddy explanation. It was in the book that I mentioned above but it's been awhile since I've read that part and I don't remember the exact reasoning.

Rain Man 11-14-2012 03:17 PM
Ah, nice answers. Thanks.

So essentially the Native Americans died because they had healthy country lifestyles in fresh air and they didn't score with Asian and African chicks.

listopencil 11-14-2012 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 9118748)
Ah, nice answers. Thanks.

So essentially the Native Americans died because they had healthy country lifestyles in fresh air and they didn't score with Asian and African chicks.
Imagine what this country would be like had there been an unbroken line of Native American population into the modern world.

Grim 11-14-2012 03:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty (Post 9118742)
Off the top of my head, the reason the NA's were so susceptible is because they were such a homogeneous group that they genetically weren't prepared to deal with the infections. Things that would just get a European under the weather could be devastating to NA's. More diverse groups like the Europeans were actually more susceptible to parasites.

Sorry for the shoddy explanation. It was in the book that I mentioned above but it's been awhile since I've read that part and I don't remember the exact reasoning.
I've heard that as well.
It's the same problem that a lot of our endangered animal species face (cheetahs specifically).
New genes in the pool is never a bad thing.

Rain Man 11-14-2012 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil (Post 9118756)
Imagine what this country would be like had there been an unbroken line of Native American population into the modern world.
I'm envisioning more of a Palestine/Israel situation.

One thing that the ancient civilizations were good at was wiping out the indigenous people when they took over a place. It made continued resistance a non-issue. It apparently happened more accidentally in the New World, but it still happened, and the Europeans ended up with an easier conquest as a result.

The Romans appear to be a big exception to that rule, though, which says that you can take over a place and not have to kill everyone who was there before. But I think the Romans brought a lot of benefits with them and gave full citizenship to the conquered people, so maybe that quelled resistance as much as killing would've.

It makes one wonder if we offered American citizenship to Iraq and let them be the 52nd state (after Puerto Rico, apparently), would that place settle down? I'm only half joking on this.

Frosty 11-14-2012 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 9118800)
I'm envisioning more of a Palestine/Israel situation.

One thing that the ancient civilizations were good at was wiping out the indigenous people when they took over a place.

Actually, it was more likely that the conquerors relocated the natives and moved their own people into the newly taken area. The native people were integrated into other areas of the empire, sometimes as slaves, sometimes as citizens.

Wholesale slaughter is a waste of resources and enslaving an entire population takes too much manpower to oversee. That's why the Romans did it the way that they did.

listopencil 11-14-2012 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 9118800)
I'm envisioning more of a Palestine/Israel situation.

One thing that the ancient civilizations were good at was wiping out the indigenous people when they took over a place. It made continued resistance a non-issue. It apparently happened more accidentally in the New World, but it still happened, and the Europeans ended up with an easier conquest as a result.

The Romans appear to be a big exception to that rule, though, which says that you can take over a place and not have to kill everyone who was there before. But I think the Romans brought a lot of benefits with them and gave full citizenship to the conquered people, so maybe that quelled resistance as much as killing would've.

It makes one wonder if we offered American citizenship to Iraq and let them be the 52nd state (after Puerto Rico, apparently), would that place settle down? I'm only half joking on this.
You are assuming that a European victory is assured. That's not necessarily true. They would hold a technological advantage at first. But it's not like the natives had no ranged weps. Then would come problems with that long supply line and keeping weapons out of the native's hands.

listopencil 11-14-2012 03:52 PM
Another fun idea for a Red Dawn remake. Alternate history prequel. The native population isn't wiped out. North and South America have to fight off Northern and Southern Europe.

listopencil 11-14-2012 03:54 PM
Fast forward a few hundred years at the end of the movie with the United Tribes of the People worrying about China.

Rain Man 11-14-2012 04:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil (Post 9118828)
You are assuming that a European victory is assured. That's not necessarily true. They would hold a technological advantage at first. But it's not like the natives had no ranged weps. Then would come problems with that long supply line and keeping weapons out of the native's hands.
It seems to me, though, that the Native Americans were too decentralized. Defeating 90 million Native Americans would be very tough, but I don't think that's the war. I think the war is defeating one tribe and then moving on to the next one. It seems like the eastern tribes would work together, but I don't think the western tribes did much of that at all, and they certainly wouldn't send troops east.

It seems like the Native Americans' best chances would be that the eastern tribes would ally and stop the Europeans at the beaches. If they got past the eastern tribes, I think they'd roll west to the sea like Sherman.

listopencil 11-14-2012 04:14 PM
Make it a series.

Episode one: The birth of the United Tribes of the People in the North and the Empire of the Three Kingdoms to the South. Freedom seeking Europeans flock to the continents to set up industrial enterprises taking advantage of the natural resources available. They become rich business tycoons and help to shape native society.

Episode two: Civil war rocks the Tribes and the Kingdoms develop into a republic. Both countries come out of it potentially stronger than they were before, and eventually take their place as a geopolitical force.

Episode three: World War One breaks and the natives sell arms to both sides, some citizens go to Europe to fight. Horrible sanctions levied by the winning side lead to economic collapse by the losers, prompting another war. The natives actively involve themselves this time and truly establish themselves as a world power.

loochy 11-14-2012 04:15 PM
OMG this is a great idea for a video game

vailpass 11-14-2012 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loochy (Post 9118872)
OMG this is a great idea for a video game
LMAO Holy shit. They complained about a supermodel hotty wearing a headress looking F-I-N-E fine.

What would they say about a video game featuring Chief Scalpum and hit merry band of tomahawking men?

loochy 11-14-2012 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9118890)
LMAO Holy shit. They complained about a supermodel hotty wearing a headress looking F-I-N-E fine.

What would they say about a video game featuring Chief Scalpum and hit merry band of tomahawking men?
DUDE you could choose the one of the indian tribes, the english, or the french.

You could pick your loadout and transportation based on your culture.

You could make strategic alliances.

You could use terrain in your homelands to your advantage.

This would be all kinds of awesome as a first person shooter / strategy / RPG mix.

vailpass 11-14-2012 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loochy (Post 9118898)
DUDE you could choose the one of the indian tribes, the english, or the french.

You could pick your loadout and transportation based on your culture.

You could make strategic alliances.

You could use terrain in your homelands to your advantage.

This would be all kinds of awesome as a first person shooter / strategy / RPG mix.
Sounds very interesting and I'm not a regular video game player. I'd love to see it; complete with historically accurate weaponry, tactics, etc. for all groups. Are there smallpox blankets in the arsenal?

listopencil 11-14-2012 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loochy (Post 9118898)
DUDE you could choose the one of the indian tribes, the english, or the french.

You could pick your loadout and transportation based on your culture.

You could make strategic alliances.

You could use terrain in your homelands to your advantage.

This would be all kinds of awesome as a first person shooter / strategy / RPG mix.

It would be a blast. Also you would need to form a relationship with the Three Kingdoms (Aztec, Inca, Mayan by the way) to secure the southern border. A mutual non aggression pact while they deal with Spain and Portugal. It would like Nobunaga's Ambition but much better.

vailpass 11-14-2012 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil (Post 9118915)
It would be a blast. Also you would need to form a relationship with the Three Kingdoms (Aztec, Inca, Mayan by the way) to secure the southern border. A mutual non aggression pact while they deal with Spain and Portugal. It would like Nobunaga's Ambition but much better.
Approx. when did those folks die out/go away?

loochy 11-14-2012 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9118910)
Are there smallpox blankets in the arsenal?
Yes, but they only work if the indians decide to accept them. Factors that may play into that include the status of relations with the european faction and current weather and supply conditions.

listopencil 11-14-2012 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9118918)
Approx. when did those folks die out/go away?
The Mayans around 1400 I think, but for purposes of the alternate history they solved their infrastructure problems and were still thriving.

listopencil 11-14-2012 04:36 PM
From one of the links in the Cracked article:


Smallpox is believed to have arrived in the Americas in 1520 on a Spanish ship sailing from Cuba, carried by an infected African slave. As soon as the party landed in Mexico, the infection began its deadly voyage through the continent. Even before the arrival of Pizarro, smallpox had already devastated the Inca Empire, killing the Emperor Huayna Capac and unleashing a bitter civil war that distracted and weakened his successor, Atahuallpa.

vailpass 11-14-2012 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loochy (Post 9118930)
Yes, but they only work if the indians decide to accept them. Factors that may play into that include the status of relations with the european faction and current weather and supply conditions.
Okay I'm starting to like this. Who can we get with to develop this? I'd be an investor if the right business plan was in place.

vailpass 11-14-2012 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil (Post 9118933)
The Mayans around 1400 I think, but for purposes of the alternate history they solved their infrastructure problems and were still thriving.
thx

Chiefs Pantalones 11-14-2012 04:45 PM
Imagine if history would've been different we would've had...

Native American Idol
Native American Bandstand
Native American Eagle
United States of Native America
Native America the Beautiful
Native American Pie, Wedding, Reunion
Native American cheese
African Native American
Native American Ninja

So much history there.

loochy 11-14-2012 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiefs Pantalones (Post 9118963)
Imagine if history would've been different we would've had...

Native American Idol
Native American Bandstand
Native American Eagle
United States of Native America
Native America the Beautiful
Native American Pie, Wedding, Reunion
Native American cheese
African Native American
Native American Ninja

So much history there.
Instead of Jersey Shore there'd be Lake Huron Shore.

vailpass 11-14-2012 04:53 PM
So bye, bye Miss Native American Pie, rode my pony to the levy but the levy was dry
Good ol braves, drinkin' firewater and shine
Singing "just another day in the tribe. Just another day in the tribe."

Chiefs Pantalones 11-14-2012 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loochy (Post 9118971)
Instead of Jersey Shore there'd be Lake Huron Shore.
Instead of the movie The Wood there'd be The Rez.

Chiefs Pantalones 11-14-2012 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9118979)
So bye, bye Miss Native American Pie, rode my pony to the levy but the levy was dry
Good ol braves, drinkin' firewater and shine
Singing "just another day in the tribe. Just another day in the tribe."
LMAO

To the studio with this NOW

Chiefs Pantalones 11-14-2012 04:55 PM
Native American woman, get away from me

loochy 11-14-2012 04:57 PM
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

When it comes crashing down, and it hurts inside,
ya' gotta take a stand, it don't help to hide,
Well, you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can't let it slide,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

I feel strong about right and wrong,
And I don't take trouble for very long,
I got something deep inside of me, and courage is the thing that keeps us free,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

Well you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can't let it slide,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

loochy 11-14-2012 04:58 PM
We'd have the Washington Peachskins

Chiefs Pantalones 11-14-2012 05:01 PM
Native American Psycho
Native American Werewolf in Paris


Big Mutton with cheese

Chiefs Pantalones 11-14-2012 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loochy (Post 9118992)
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

When it comes crashing down, and it hurts inside,
ya' gotta take a stand, it don't help to hide,
Well, you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can't let it slide,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

I feel strong about right and wrong,
And I don't take trouble for very long,
I got something deep inside of me, and courage is the thing that keeps us free,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

Well you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can't let it slide,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!
LMAO

Chiefs Pantalones 11-14-2012 05:05 PM
Cleveland Whites
Kansas City Presidents
Washington Whiteskins
Atlanta Upperclassmen
Florida State Blue Collars

Chiefs Pantalones 11-14-2012 05:17 PM
The Red House
Pentayazzi
The Sioux Chapel
The Horse of Representatives

listopencil 11-14-2012 06:22 PM
See, I'm still going with the United Tribes of the People for USA. Which language would become predominant? What tribe might be politically savvy enough for their language to be the official language of the land? Iroquois? The United Tribes of Iroquois? Bye, bye Miss Iroquois Pie?

okoye35chiefs 11-14-2012 06:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by loochy (Post 9118992)
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

When it comes crashing down, and it hurts inside,
ya' gotta take a stand, it don't help to hide,
Well, you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can't let it slide,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

I feel strong about right and wrong,
And I don't take trouble for very long,
I got something deep inside of me, and courage is the thing that keeps us free,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!

Well you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride,
I gotta be a man; I can't let it slide,
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!
I am a real Native American, Fight for the rights of every man,
I am a real Native American, fight for what's right, fight for your life!
ROFL:clap:

listopencil 11-14-2012 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 9118979)
So bye, bye Miss Native American Pie, rode my pony to the levy but the levy was dry
Good ol braves, drinkin' firewater and shine
Singing "just another day in the tribe. Just another day in the tribe."

You may be onto something here.

Aries Walker 11-14-2012 10:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 9118731)
I think I mentioned this in a thread a while back, but the thing I don't get is why this was a one-way deal. Europeans show up and cough, and 90 million Native Americans start dying. But why didn't the Native Americans cough and kill all of the arriving Europeans?

And presumably no diseases went back to Europe with Columbus and John Smith and Verrazano and all those guys. Why not? Why didn't Europe take the same disease beatdown that the Native Americans took? Was it just sheer luck? Did the Viking expeditions somehow inoculate Europeans? And why didn't the Vikings start the North American plague? Or is it possible that something like the Black Plague was carried from America with the Vikings and nailed the white folk 200 years earlier?
The book Guns, Germs and Steel is really good (Pulitzer-winning good, actually) about explaining this. The short version is that it goes back to the diversity of plant and animal life in Europe/Asia/Africa, due to the shape of the continents; crops that were feasible in India could be transported to China and Turkey and Italy and Spain, and be feasible there as well because they were all at about the same latitude. In America, you didn't have this; a crop feasible in Peru could be transported to Panama or Argentina, but the latitude difference meant it likely wasn't as feasible in those new places. Hence, less diversity.

Diversity in crops meant better farming. Better farming meant fewer farmers were needed to feed a city. Fewer farmers meant more administrators, priests, artisans, and engineers. More of all of them meant more innovation. More innovation led to steel, firearms, ships, sextants, and advanced forms of government. All of that stuff led to the Europeans sending ships to America, rather than vice versa.

Diversity also lead to Europeans/Asians/Africans being exposed to a much, much wider variety of plant-born and animal-spread diseases, and therefore developing natural resistances to them. Native Americans, having a much narrower range of flora and fauna, didn't develop that. As someone else pointed out, these germs ran wild in America once they were introduced, and killed something like 95% of the Natives before the Europeans even landed in force. It was pretty brutal, but also unintentional - the follow-ups, however, were both brutal and very intentional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 9118843)
It seems to me, though, that the Native Americans were too decentralized. Defeating 90 million Native Americans would be very tough, but I don't think that's the war. I think the war is defeating one tribe and then moving on to the next one. It seems like the eastern tribes would work together, but I don't think the western tribes did much of that at all, and they certainly wouldn't send troops east.

It seems like the Native Americans' best chances would be that the eastern tribes would ally and stop the Europeans at the beaches. If they got past the eastern tribes, I think they'd roll west to the sea like Sherman.
If there were twenty or fifty times as many Natives as there were, I don't see the Plymouth colony surviving King Phillip's War, or the Pequot Uprising. The Iroquois Confederacy would rule for a long time. The best place for a continued European settlement would be Maryland or Virginia, which was mostly inter-tribal swampland.

The Europeans probably would never penetrate past the Appalachians, and if they did, they would never in a million years be able to maintain a supply line across the Great Plains. It would be *teeming* with Natives, and given the expertise the plains tribes developed with horses once they got them, the Europeans would be helpless against the lightning raids.

Easy 6 11-15-2012 12:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries Walker (Post 9110806)
A. Check out Chief Wahoo, the mascot of the Cleveland Indians.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001..._7_xlarge.jpeg

Now imagine it as black, Latino, Asian, Jewish, Arabic, or any other nationality in the world. How do you think members of that nationality would react?
Thats all true... if it were some bucktoothed, subserviant looking charlie chan oriental with thick glasses, or a hooknosed jew holding a bag, a cow towing slave, gun toting latinos or arabs etc... it would be blasted and decried in the media throughout the ages.

Agreed on ALL of that, but please dont come after the Chiefs name :D... Together Is Powerful.

Aries Walker 11-15-2012 07:03 AM
No, I have no more a problem with the Chiefs than I do with the Kings; the Braves is no worse than the Rangers; and the Seminoles and Blackhawks are no more problematic than the Vikings or Celtics. It's one thing to be sensitive to their plight, but it's another to try and pretend that they don't exist, or that they aren't a fundamental part of our nation.

The only ones that I know that cross the line are the Indians mascot and the Redskins name, and they cross waaaaay over it.

WhiteWhale 11-15-2012 07:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 9117094)
Love a good sense of humor.


As far as I know there isn't a single German mascot or icon. When you look at just how many krauts there are in this country that's crazy.

I mean "The Fighting Irish?" Really? The Germans helped launch 2 world wars for ****'s sake.

Time to hit the interwebnets...I want a good racist German mascot...
If there was a mascot called the "Fighting Germans" I guarantee you someone would be offended, but it wouldn't be germans...

mdchiefsfan 11-15-2012 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil (Post 9118625)
Well, it could be regional. I was born in Virginia. We moved to Texas the Summer before I started elementary school, I did not go to kindergarten or day care. We moved back to Virginia the Summer before I started Jr. High School. I moved to Colorado during High School. I think that gave me an atypical education and made me more aware of prejudice that might otherwise have gone unnoticed.

Virginia: The Pilgrims created our country with the help of the Founding Fathers. Along the way we showed the Indians how to bathe and act like civilized men. Afterwards, the state of Virginia defeated the British.

Texas: Texas was already here. It's always been here. By the time the Easterners made it out this far we had already killed off all of our Indians and were busy eating cows and killing Spaniards/Mexicans.

Colorado: Well, yeah, what we did to the Indians was pretty ****ed up. But it's not like we're going to stop here and give all of their shit back. We kept some of their stuff around. You can go see it.
Born and raised in Williamsburg. I understood exactly what you were saying.


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