ChiefsPlanet

ChiefsPlanet (https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/index.php)
-   Nzoner's Game Room (https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   Life A Question About Giving up a kidney. (https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=315441)

Rain Man 05-18-2018 11:08 PM

A Question About Giving up a kidney.
 
An acquaintance of mine donated a kidney. My wife told me about it.

I said, "Oh, did he have a sibling who needed it or something?"

She said, "No, he just always wanted to donate a kidney."

"Donate it to who?"

"Anyone. So he's made arrangements and he's donating one."

After several moments of disbelief and confusion, I finally understood that this guy had always thought it would be cool to donate a kidney, so he made arrangements and did it. Just had the doctors take it out, and presumably it's now in some other person.

I had no idea that a person could do this. I always figured that donations either came after death, or you could do it for a specific person. Did you know that a person could do this?

What do you think about this?

tooge 05-18-2018 11:19 PM

Yeah, no. Then you get T boned by some dumbass, lose your other kidney, then spend several days a week visiting the dialysis clinic

JakeF 05-18-2018 11:35 PM

Sounds like a wonderful person but so much can go wrong. Wow.

kysirsoze 05-18-2018 11:36 PM

Pretty sure I drink too much to go handing out kidneys.

Flying High D 05-19-2018 05:17 AM

I worked with a guy who gave his brother a kidney. He said the complications and the medication you have to take for the rest of your life is a hassle.

Scooter LaCanforno 05-19-2018 05:58 AM

Does the Five Second rule apply if they drop it on the floor.

lewdog 05-19-2018 06:09 AM

Absolutely not.

My organs are mine, until I’m dead. At which time they can be used for whatever someone needs.

displacedinMN 05-19-2018 06:25 AM

Save it for a relative. Besides, mine insides are yellow green from drinking Mt. Dew.

tmax63 05-19-2018 06:35 AM

I'm in between. It's way cool that he wants to help someone that way but as said earlier he's one wreck away from being the person he helped. I've known people with one kidney and they was normal in every way including drinking so I know living with one isn't a problem except there's no back-up.

Pasta Little Brioni 05-19-2018 07:07 AM

Probably so he can brag on Facebook about it.

DaFace 05-19-2018 07:48 AM

I saw a guy on reddit the other day who said he got $200k for donating his kidney on the black market. I might consider that, but I don't think I'd give one away just for fun.

patteeu 05-19-2018 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JakeF (Post 13561909)
Sounds like a wonderful person but so much can go wrong. Wow.

That about sums it up for me. Wow.

SupDock 05-19-2018 09:44 AM

I donated one of mine to a relative about 10 years ago. So far so good. Donating a kidney should not result in you taking any new meds. Donors are rigorously screened, and are generally more healthy than the average population. Long term studies show they do quite well

In regards to not having a backup this is true in terms of traumatic injuries, but most kidneys are lost due to medical reasons, and these conditions like diabetes and hypertension effect both kidneys, so they both fail.

Definitely not a decision to be taken lightly though.

'Hamas' Jenkins 05-19-2018 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying High D (Post 13561943)
I worked with a guy who gave his brother a kidney. He said the complications and the medication you have to take for the rest of your life is a hassle.

That's only for the recipient.

scho63 05-19-2018 09:59 AM

The only organ I'm donating is the one between my legs and just for females on the donor waiting list.

'Hamas' Jenkins 05-19-2018 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scho63 (Post 13562124)
The only organ I'm donating is the one between my legs and just for females on the donor waiting list.

Is it really a donation when you have to pay them to receive it?

TimBone 05-19-2018 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 13562128)
Is it really a donation when you have to pay them to receive it?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...26d14d9e3a.gif

Fire Me Boy! 05-19-2018 12:57 PM

As someone in need of a kidney, that guy really is a hero.

If I could, I would. Maybe not without knowing what I know now, four years into dialysis.

Donating a kidney shouldn’t be any more eventful than a few days in the hospital and a couple weeks of R&R. No new meds, no changes in lifestyle.

For the person receiving it, it not only is a literal life saver, it gives them back their life. Being tethered to a machine is no way to live. I know.

The Franchise 05-19-2018 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 13562128)
Is it really a donation when you have to pay them to receive it?

Bravo, sir. Bravo.:clap:

Sofa King 05-19-2018 01:39 PM

My girlfriend donated one to her father. Quite the ordeal.

scho63 05-19-2018 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 13562128)
Is it really a donation when you have to pay them to receive it?

I NEVER pay women for sex. I pay them for the hotel room, the liquor from the minibar, their gas back and forth to meet me and their witty conversation. :D

scho63 05-19-2018 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Me Boy! (Post 13562250)
As someone in need of a kidney, that guy really is a hero.

For the person receiving it, it not only is a literal life saver, it gives them back their life. Being tethered to a machine is no way to live. I know.

Wow, I hope you get that kidney. :grovel:

I know this may be a stupid question but have you look at international options? Is it viable or allowed?

T-post Tom 05-19-2018 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scho63 (Post 13562124)
The only organ I'm donating is the one between my legs and just for females on the donor waiting list.

Short organ, short list. :D

Otter 05-19-2018 04:02 PM

"hooker and lots of ice"

I hate seeing a poll option go to waste.

BucEyedPea 05-19-2018 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scho63 (Post 13562124)
The only organ I'm donating is the one between my legs and just for females on the donor waiting list.

Only one I'd donate is an ovary—perhaps even two. :harumph:

Iowanian 05-19-2018 05:04 PM

I offered a kidney to a friend a couple of years ago who had kidney cancer. He's a good sonnabitch of a human. He ended up being good with one of his own but I'd have done it for sure.

AssEaterChief 05-19-2018 05:12 PM

I think I would never do it because I have never had surgery and don't ****ing plan on it...especially voluntarily

T-post Tom 05-19-2018 05:27 PM

Won't be long before a kidney can be grown in the lab and then transplanted.

https://www.uq.edu.au/news/article/2...ini-kidney-lab

Marcellus 05-19-2018 05:28 PM

Alport Syndrome is a hereditary disease in my family from my mothers side. Its a kidney killer that is an X chromosome defect.

My grandfather, his brother, my mom, and 2 of my aunts have died form kidney disease and several cousins have had kidney transplants because of it.

Dude is a straight up hero.

ClevelandBronco 05-19-2018 07:10 PM

I might be willing to let go of a slightly used testicle. Pretty sure I’m not going to release a kidney.

Fire Me Boy! 05-19-2018 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 13562423)
Alport Syndrome is a hereditary disease in my family from my mothers side. Its a kidney killer that is an X chromosome defect.

My grandfather, his brother, my mom, and 2 of my aunts have died form kidney disease and several cousins have had kidney transplants because of it.

Dude is a straight up hero.



Truth.

Hog's Gone Fishin 05-19-2018 09:14 PM

I need BOTH my kidneys to filter beer.

Rain Man 05-19-2018 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Me Boy! (Post 13562250)
As someone in need of a kidney, that guy really is a hero.

If I could, I would. Maybe not without knowing what I know now, four years into dialysis.

Donating a kidney shouldn’t be any more eventful than a few days in the hospital and a couple weeks of R&R. No new meds, no changes in lifestyle.

For the person receiving it, it not only is a literal life saver, it gives them back their life. Being tethered to a machine is no way to live. I know.

I thought about you when I heard it. I wish I could've hooked you two up.

I wonder with this guy if he would have liked to give it to a particular person or not. It appears that he wasn't motivated by helping a particular individual, even though that's the obvious outcome.

I wondered too about the payment. He's going to have significant medical bills, so I'm presuming that some organization or some person paid them for him. Was it the recipient? Some nonprofit? And my impression is that he didn't sell the kidney, though I guess I don't know that.

-King- 05-20-2018 12:25 AM

They can do whatever they want after I'm dead but until then only way I would donate is for a family or extremely close friend.







Or for a seven figure deal.
Posted via Mobile Device

Fire Me Boy! 05-20-2018 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 13562697)
I thought about you when I heard it. I wish I could've hooked you two up.



I wonder with this guy if he would have liked to give it to a particular person or not. It appears that he wasn't motivated by helping a particular individual, even though that's the obvious outcome.



I wondered too about the payment. He's going to have significant medical bills, so I'm presuming that some organization or some person paid them for him. Was it the recipient? Some nonprofit? And my impression is that he didn't sell the kidney, though I guess I don't know that.



Recipients insurance usually covers all costs for the donor.

scho63 05-21-2018 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-post Tom (Post 13562320)
Short organ, short list. :D

Yeah it may be real short but it's real thick! ROFLROFL

scho63 05-21-2018 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 13562423)
Alport Syndrome is a hereditary disease in my family from my mothers side. Its a kidney killer that is an X chromosome defect.

My grandfather, his brother, my mom, and 2 of my aunts have died form kidney disease and several cousins have had kidney transplants because of it.

Dude is a straight up hero.

WOW :eek::eek::eek:

I hope it wasn't passed to the next generation

Frazod 05-21-2018 10:39 AM

I'll give up a kidney for free the day the doctors transplant it for free.

Fire Me Boy! 05-21-2018 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod (Post 13563916)
I'll give up a kidney for free the day the doctors transplant it for free.

Do you mean where it won't cost the donor any money to donate? Excellent, because it already doesn't. Medicare (ESRD is a qualifying factor) covers 100% of the cost for the donor. Recipient pays very little.

saphojunkie 05-21-2018 11:12 AM

Hopefully it goes into a hot chick, and his dick is allowed visitation every other weekend.

Graystoke 05-21-2018 11:16 AM

I know your body will function just fine with one kidney. But man, I like having a reserve.
Family donation -Yes.
Close Friend-Yes
Just because-? Probably not

Marcellus 05-21-2018 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scho63 (Post 13563902)
WOW :eek::eek::eek:

I hope it wasn't passed to the next generation

It has and will continue to be unfortunately, at least for a few more generations.

You can be a defect carrier and never get symptoms yourself (kidney disease) and then pass it on.


Since its an X chromosome defect and Girls = XX and Boys = XY, males always determine gender.

If you are female and are a carrier you have a 50% chance of passing it along to your offspring, it depends on which X chromosome you pass to your kid, the good one or the bad one. If you are male and are a carrier if you have a girl well, you passed it on since you only have one X chromosome to give.

My grandfather who died from it had 6 daughters so they all ended up with it either symptomatic or as a carrier. 3 daughters were symptomatic, 3 were just carriers. 2 of my aunts who were asymptomatic passed it on to their sons who developed Kidney disease and had transplants. That's shit luck. The 3 symptomatic daughters all died from it.

Fortunately for me and my 2 brothers it appears all 3 of us dodged the bullet with our mom not passing the defective X chromosome to any of us as far as we can tell. My daughter has been genetically tested and she isn't a carrier so no way am I a carrier. My brothers only have 1 boy between them so its possible they are carriers but neither are symptomatic and it usually manifests itself by your 20's if you will be. So they wont be passing it on fortunately.

Frazod 05-21-2018 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Me Boy! (Post 13563940)
Do you mean where it won't cost the donor any money to donate? Excellent, because it already doesn't. Medicare (ESRD is a qualifying factor) covers 100% of the cost for the donor. Recipient pays very little.

No, that's not what I meant at all. The doctor's getting paid. The hospital's getting paid. Why shouldn't the donor get paid?

Fire Me Boy! 05-21-2018 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod (Post 13564115)
No, that's not what I meant at all. The doctor's getting paid. The hospital's getting paid. Why shouldn't the donor get paid?

How very selfless of you.

Beef Supreme 05-21-2018 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Me Boy! (Post 13564117)
How very selfless of you.

How many kidneys have you donated?

Frazod 05-21-2018 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Me Boy! (Post 13564117)
How very selfless of you.

Yeah, show me the final combined bill, then talk to me about selflessness.

Marcellus 05-21-2018 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod (Post 13564115)
No, that's not what I meant at all. The doctor's getting paid. The hospital's getting paid. Why shouldn't the donor get paid?

I believe legalizing selling organs would become a bit of an ethically complicated mine field.

I did hear on a podcast a while back that one of the biggest markets for missing and exploited children in the middle east is the very rich sheikhs will pay people for these black market kids if they are a match to harvest their organs so their own sick children can get a transplant.

Disturbing to say the least.

Frazod 05-21-2018 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 13564121)
I believe legalizing selling organs would become a bit of an ethically complicated mine field.

I did hear on a podcast a while back that one of the biggest markets for missing and exploited children in the middle east is the very rich sheikhs will pay people for these black market kids if they are a match to harvest their organs so their own sick children can get a transplant.

Disturbing to say the least.

Sounds like rich muslim scumbags doing rich muslim scumbag shit. Has little bearing the way things work here.

I just don't see any reason why the only person who doesn't reap a windfall here is the person giving up a vital organ. That's nuts.

Beef Supreme 05-21-2018 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 13564121)
I believe legalizing selling organs would become a bit of an ethically complicated mine field.

I did hear on a podcast a while back that one of the biggest markets for missing and exploited children in the middle east is the very rich sheikhs will pay people for these black market kids if they are a match to harvest their organs so their own sick children can get a transplant.

Disturbing to say the least.

They pay people for plasma donations.:shrug:


https://www.uphe.com/sites/default/f...-Gallery-1.jpg

The Franchise 05-21-2018 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod (Post 13564123)
Sounds like rich muslim scumbags doing rich muslim scumbag shit. Has little bearing the way things work here.

I just don't see any reason why the only person who doesn't reap a windfall here is the person giving up a vital organ. That's nuts.

Where is the money going to come from?

Frazod 05-21-2018 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pestilence (Post 13564145)
Where is the money going to come from?

Same place the rest of it comes from.

-King- 05-21-2018 02:19 PM

This thread has taken a turn for the insane...
Posted via Mobile Device

Fire Me Boy! 05-21-2018 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet (Post 13564119)
How many kidneys have you donated?

Knowing what I know now, with zero functioning kidneys and needing one so I don't hook up to a machine for 10 hours every night; tethered to within 12 feet of wherever I place my dialysis machine; losing any semblance of a social life, because in order to be at work at a reasonable hour, I have to hook up at 7:30 every night; visiting doctors every other week; the monthly blood work and quarterly urinalysis; the anxiety every time you get a cold, because those are some of the same symptoms of peritonitis, which could kill me; the periodic hospital visit just because shit's not working right, and multitude of other complications that come from losing kidney function; the hassle with any kind of overnight travel, including shipping or lugging 18L of dialysate solution for every night I'm gone, manual bags in case the machine breaks... I could go on.

I would if I could, BCT. I would if I could.

Fire Me Boy! 05-21-2018 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod (Post 13564120)
Yeah, show me the final combined bill, then talk to me about selflessness.

The donor doesn't pay a dollar.

srvy 05-21-2018 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet (Post 13564126)
They pay people for plasma donations.:shrug:


https://www.uphe.com/sites/default/f...-Gallery-1.jpg

They pay women to carry a child to term then hand it off.

srvy 05-21-2018 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-post Tom (Post 13562422)
Won't be long before a kidney can be grown in the lab and then transplanted.

https://www.uq.edu.au/news/article/2...ini-kidney-lab

https://cdn.face2faceafrica.com/www/....0_640_360.jpg

MahiMike 05-21-2018 02:53 PM

(in my best Red voice) Dumbass!

'Hamas' Jenkins 05-21-2018 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod (Post 13564115)
No, that's not what I meant at all. The doctor's getting paid. The hospital's getting paid. Why shouldn't the donor get paid?

If your wife needed a transplant and you were a match, would you donate?

Beef Supreme 05-21-2018 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 13564210)
If your wife needed a transplant and you were a match, would you donate?

I think that's not even relevant to the point he is making. Pretty sure everyone would.

Would you walk in to a hospital and just randomly donate a kidney to nobody in particular? Without compensation? Does it make you an asshole if you wouldn't? Does it make the Doctor an asshole since he didn't donate his time and expertise to do the procedure? Are the hospitals assholes for charging for tests and blood work and bed time, etc?

Marcellus 05-21-2018 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Me Boy! (Post 13564176)
The donor doesn't pay a dollar.

There is actually more to it than that as well.

A lot of the time when people are seeking a living donor, usually within the family but not always, they offer to recoup any income lost due to the procedure as the donor is going to miss many weeks of work as well.

Marcellus 05-21-2018 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigChiefTablet (Post 13564126)
They pay people for plasma donations.:shrug:

Plasma is a renewable resource nor is it an organ, they have been paying people to do that forever.

You wont just grow another kidney.

Beef Supreme 05-21-2018 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 13564269)
Plasma is a renewable resource nor is it an organ, they have been paying people to do that forever.

You wont just grow another kidney.

Seems like it should be worth more then.

Flying High D 05-21-2018 03:47 PM

You can lose a lot of weight selling plasma.

Frazod 05-21-2018 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Me Boy! (Post 13564176)
The donor doesn't pay a dollar.

It costs them nothing but a ****ING KIDNEY. If their other kidney later fails, do they get it back?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 13564210)
If your wife needed a transplant and you were a match, would you donate?

Yeah. But it would have to be somebody I cared about that much, and there aren't very many of them.

SAUTO 05-21-2018 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Me Boy! (Post 13564117)
How very selfless of you.

I wish you the best. Totally.

But the doctors and such are making a killing off of it. The recipient is possibly making a non killing off of it.


Why shouldn't the person who doenst have a dog in the fight not get something out of it? Especially since they might need a back up some day .

SAUTO 05-21-2018 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 13564210)
If your wife needed a transplant and you were a match, would you donate?

every day .

I would risk my life for her any time. Some random? Im on to try to help on anything that's doesn't include knowing im losing body parts before the war even starts

Fire Me Boy! 05-21-2018 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAUTO (Post 13564387)
I wish you the best. Totally.



But the doctors and such are making a killing off of it. The recipient is possibly making a non killing off of it.





Why shouldn't the person who doenst have a dog in the fight not get something out of it? Especially since they might need a back up some day .



Selling becomes a bigger issue. There are places on this planet where selling organs is perfectly legal, and trafficking is a major problem.

SAUTO 05-21-2018 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Me Boy! (Post 13564397)
Selling becomes a bigger issue. There are places on this planet where selling organs is perfectly legal, and trafficking is a major problem.

Oh I understand. Totally.

But in your case I think it would help you tremendously

Rain Man 05-21-2018 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Me Boy! (Post 13564397)
Selling becomes a bigger issue. There are places on this planet where selling organs is perfectly legal, and trafficking is a major problem.

Is it legal to sell your own organs, those of a deceased person, or just random organs that you, um, find?

The second case is the most interesting to me. Is there a country where a relative dies and the family sells all of the organs as an inheritance? I'm genuinely curious.

Fire Me Boy! 05-21-2018 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 13564475)
Is it legal to sell your own organs, those of a deceased person, or just random organs that you, um, find?



The second case is the most interesting to me. Is there a country where a relative dies and the family sells all of the organs as an inheritance? I'm genuinely curious.



I haven’t heard of that. More of a problem is people taking homeless people or people in dire straits financially and offering them a “cut” of the money they get.

BigBeauford 05-21-2018 06:49 PM

I'll give one up for Richie Incognito if he'll play for us.

Marcellus 05-21-2018 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBeauford (Post 13564491)
I'll give one up for Richie Incognito if he'll play for us.

Thats an impressively dumb post no matter which angle you look at it.

BucEyedPea 05-21-2018 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod (Post 13564348)
It costs them nothing but a ****ING KIDNEY. If their other kidney later fails, do they get it back?

I was wondering what happens if your kidney has stones in it?

BigRichard 05-22-2018 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying High D (Post 13561943)
I worked with a guy who gave his brother a kidney. He said the complications and the medication you have to take for the rest of your life is a hassle.

Donors do not need to take medications after donating besides some possible pain meds immediately following. Recipients will need to but not donors.

https://www.kidneyregistry.org/livin...s.php?cookie=1

ClevelandBronco 05-22-2018 07:14 AM

I think if I were ever to entertain the notion, I’d want a clause in the agreement: If the recipient’s body were to “reject” the kidney, I’d want the option to get it back at no cost. Call it a right of second refusal. I’d also want no-cost counseling for the kidney so it could learn strategies for coping with rejection.

Frazod 05-22-2018 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRichard (Post 13564850)
Donors do not need to take medications after donating besides some possible pain meds immediately following. Recipients will need to but not donors.

https://www.kidneyregistry.org/livin...s.php?cookie=1

So you know all about the medical condition of the co-worker of a guy on the internet that you don't know?

Got it.

:facepalm:

Fire Me Boy! 05-22-2018 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco (Post 13564860)
I think if I were ever to entertain the notion, I’d want a clause in the agreement: If the recipient’s body were to “reject” the kidney, I’d want the option to get it back at no cost. Call it a right of second refusal.

I wonder if that's even possible?

In the same vein, could the donor come back to you and get your other kidney if yours fails? Kinda like an organ lemon law?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco (Post 13564860)
I’d also want no-cost counseling for the kidney so it could learn strategies for coping with rejection.

ROFL

Fire Me Boy! 05-22-2018 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod (Post 13564931)
So you know all about the medical condition of the co-worker of a guy on the internet that you don't know?

Got it.

:facepalm:

He's saying under normal circumstances. And he's right. If that other dude is on meds due to the donation, it's because of some kind of complication, which are pretty rare.

Frazod 05-22-2018 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fire Me Boy! (Post 13565026)
He's saying under normal circumstances. And he's right. If that other dude is on meds due to the donation, it's because of some kind of complication, which are pretty rare.

That's funny, I just checked for the words "under normal circumstances" in BigRichard's post, and sure enough, they weren't there.

Complications being "pretty rare" probably doesn't mean much to a guy suffering from life long complications.

patteeu 05-22-2018 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod (Post 13565042)
That's funny, I just checked for the words "under normal circumstances" in BigRichard's post, and sure enough, they weren't there.

Complications being "pretty rare" probably doesn't mean much to a guy suffering from life long complications.

I’m confident the need for the donor to be on life long meds is extremely rare.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:19 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.