HEY SORTER!! (and SULLY)
 

Is there any way you guys can learn us some football?

I respect, admire and am totally green with envy y'all's knowledge of football defenses and offenses and the structuring of the plays and such.

My personal playing experience pinnacle is the sandlot with neighborhood kids where the greatest play ever called was "EVERYBODY GO OUT FOR A PASS!!!!"

I am the epitome of the armchair fan watching a game that has no idea what he is looking at. But I still dig the hell out of it.

I'm too old and creepy to attend a football for girls class, so is there anywhere to get started like a football for dummies path to follow?

The Jets playbook is kind of useless to me at this point. I'm looking for the cue-cards being held a little lower.

You guys could probably organize some seminars and get tons of us mopes here to sign up. I'd like to sit in the front row.

Enlighten us, wise ones, please.

Dinny

**** Sorter

What's football?

Sorter may be tied up with a lawsuit for a while...

It's a game with big guys and a pigskin, but that's not important right now.

Dinny

Could you imagine if it was a bunch of little guys and really big pigskins?

From the name, I assume some game predominately involving kicking the ball.

x trips banana red z flanker zap spider 6.

You're welcome.

Sure!

There's pigs and little guys?!?!?!?

Thanks.

That was real swell of you doin' a solid.

Watching football will never be the same.

I'ma lay some field mouse rep stick on ya.

Dinny

y=mx+b

Make him give you a free guitar lesson for educating him Sorter.

I'll post some screen caps of the Chiefs with the Jets PB so it'll make more sense. Try to get a few up tonight.

Literally been asking this in almost every Sorter thread.

Let me pretface by saying a few things...
A) I don't know it all. Far from it. I think I'm pretty knowledgeable, but year after year I learn things that absolutely astound me (that I didn't know them before), and make me feel dumb as hell.
B) the reason Exoter's lying was so obvious is because, like anything, there's a language involved. I don't know shit about motorcycles. So when Dayze discusses his, I'm worthless. I could pretend, by using some language I heard on SoA, but I'd be obviously in over my head, and anyone would be able to tell with any modicum of knowledge.
C) Beyond the basics, it all becomes opinion, anyway. Wanna hear a fun argument? Show two coaches a defense, and ask them if its a 3-3 or a 3-5 or a 5-3. Coaches will argue for days about that shit. Here's a hint, they are all the same!

All that said, waddya wanna know?

Actually, there was some kind of game where they rolled this huge medicine-ball looking thing around a field. Opposing team on each side of the ball.

I think it was a college kids thing, but not sure.

Dinny

I think a lot of posters feel this way, DT. Sorter's wit and humor are only exceeded by his Xs & Os. He is one of the very few who could single-handedly raise the collective football IQ of this forum. If there were only a way to get him to do it.

And banning Claynus would raise that same IQ by subtraction. His minions will eventually shrink and disappear, further raising the level.

Dinny

Welp, considering I'm probably viewed as a minion around here...

I wouldn't view you as such.

However, if you would care to unburden some inner turmoil, feel free to get in touch with your inner Simply Red.

disclaimer: I believe everyone's inner Simply Red is a truly beatiful thing.

Dinny

Awesome, now he can find the slope. Won't help him understand football, though.

****
Me

I heard the new "Omaha" motor is decent. Though, it's a little flat up top in the power band, and has no bottom end. Though, it is light weight. But nothing I'd personally want to rail through the gears. Doesn't eat a lot a fuel.

Reduce: Chiefs @ Broncos 1st Play of the Game
 

So, the 1st play of the game was a nice completion to Sanders for 48 yards. The Broncos came out in Detroit personnel (2TE2WR1RB) with a trips to the field.

The Chiefs aligned (as they love to early in games) in their "Reduce" front, which is base 3-4 personnel. The front looks like this:

http://i.imgur.com/7UkhUaO.png

If you'll notice, it states that it's a either Cover 3 (Trey) and Cover 6 (Pack) depending on the offensive alignment. The front can also change by alignment.

http://i.imgur.com/1dyvzyn.png

http://i.imgur.com/q6FmZXF.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/BYujMlg.jpg

In the picture above, you'll notice the left end has changed from aligning in a 4 technique or heads up on the offensive tackle to aligning heads up on the "Y" or TE. The other DT has changed from a heads up "2" technique to a 3 in-between the guard and tackle. It looks like this in the Jets PB.

http://i.imgur.com/bT4cIPM.png


http://i.imgur.com/q6FmZXF.jpg

Now, in the picture above, you'll notice Cooper has now changed to playing off coverage. Because of the front change, the chiefs are now playing "Pack" or Cover 6 with the quarters side to the field. Cooper is responsible for 1/4, Berry 1/4, Abdullah 1/2, and Smith squatting on the boundary side.

http://i.imgur.com/56VE5EL.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/e4GXlWY.jpg

In the picture above, you can see the 2 vertical routes getting ready to rape the quarters coverage. Berry will pick up Thomas, leaving no help for Cooper. Thomas draws Abdullah as well, leaving nobody over the top to help Cochise's favorite player of all time, Marcus Cooper.


http://i.imgur.com/pkNWNra.jpg

That results in this picture below:

http://i.imgur.com/Yt3BjDa.jpg




Steve Spurrier was pretty well known for his "Mills" concept: a 2 man combo that had the inside receiver running a deep in/dig and the outside receiver running a post. Against quarters, the inside 1/4 player jumps the underneath route and the post is 1-1 with inside leverage.

Peyton Manning used it pretty well here.


ROFL. Just found this. Same. Exact. Play.
http://jimlightsfootballblog.files.w...ls-1.gif?w=584

Ask dinny about he pan head at my shop a couple years ago dayze...


Old school

Are we getting sued sorter?


I must've missed something while at the bar drinking

I was told that we aren't.


Whoooooooo!!! More reduce fronts for everyone!

My dream is to one day build a killer rat bike or bobber with a kick ass pan or knuckle head motor.

**** them sue me

Ask dinny what's been at my shop

I've never heard that referred to as "Detroit."

It's like bearcat 52 mike.

Dinny....

I'm gonna have to go ahead and ask you to describe, I this thread or the Motorcycle Discussion Thread, the bike goodies at Jason's shop please. It must happen.

Do your part for mankind.

He was there for m buddy's build after his dad died.

53 pan head built at the bike show?

We have some cool shit, dayze.

Lol

I just don't understand the Detroit use, when twelve works just fine.

Oh well, I can't stop myself from yelling "Peter, peter, peter!" When "Poison!" Makes much more sense.

:hmmm:
Ya know, some of my favorite alphabet highways are down there in that area (z hwy off of 7 in Clinton for one).

I must ride down there to your neck of the woods next time I'm burning through a few tanks of gas.


.....****ing hate winter. :banghead:

I tried to tell you we have good ridin roads down here some time ago...

Roll through sometime

Z hits 7 less than ten miles from me...

:LOL:

Now that you mention it you're right. I always catch myself rewinding to see how the front 3 align especially early in games. Always looks odd with Poe sticking out the most. I hadn't noticed the tendecy about Sutton running that early on

Well damn, they just toast the hell out of us with that little number dont they... might be nice if Berry gave a little help on that once in a while instead of both him and Abdullah converging on Thomas every time.

So, in that situation, who fubared?

Looks like its gotta be Berry, Thomas is running into Lewis' half of the field and no deep help was needed on the WR over there... Lewis actually recognizes whats about to go down and tries to get all the way over there to help.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Xus57BaY3hI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Dinny, did that do anything for you?

Yes it was Berry.

No offensive player should ever be behind him in his deep 1/4...Ever.

I can't speak for dinny, but i really enjoyed it... one guy blowing his coverage by a few steps can give up points.

it really is a game of inches, or a step, etc..

Well I was kind of lost at first with the verbiage. I started getting it by the time you put circles and arrows in the pics. Then the video put it all together for me. Very nicely done, maestro.

Other than that, it gave me a mouse-terous chubby. BRB in about 13.5 seconds.

Dinny

I need a cigarette.

Dinny

The greatest NFL play ever called is 65 Toss Power Trap. Fact.

ROFL


I'll be sure to get some nice screencaps when Orton throws a pick.

This thread has super potential, if Sully and Sorter stay with it.

Pretty epic description of that one play that's torched us in two different Broncos games.

I have a ton of questions, Sorter. Not because I don't think you know what you're talking about, it's because I don't know what you're talking about.

Some of these questions are on the sub-Blackbobian level of stupidity, so I figure I will be subjected to much ridicule, but I'm willing to risk it. I find this stuff fascinating. I also believe it is very difficult to learn this stuff, or at least takes a great deal of time and determination.

Instead of quoting the whole post, I'll take it in little dumbass sized pieces.

"So, the 1st play of the game was a nice completion to Sanders for 48 yards. The Broncos came out in Detroit personnel (2TE2WR1RB) with a trips to the field."

1. Does the Detroit personnel indicate they are probably going to pass the ball? With only one guy in the backfield, it seems like it. On the other hand, it could mean there are a lot of people out there to block for him. :shrug: (I will no doubt have dumber questions than this.)

2. What does "with a trips to the field" mean?

Dinny

Edit, I looked again and see an H back there with the RB. Halfback? Why isn't the "H" listed in the description of the Detroit personnel? Maybe I'm more confused than I didn't know I was.

I didnt think these questions were stupid.

For the first one, it varies from team to team. Some teams do things exclusively out of certain personnel groupings and alignments.


To the wide/open side of the field.

Why is KC's run D struggling?

The Chiefs aligned (as they love to early in games) in their "Reduce" front, which is base 3-4 personnel. The front looks like this:



First of all, is there a map key that identifies the symbols and letters? Why is the QB's oval empty? Shouldn't there be a star or VIP thingy in there? Seriously, though, I need some learning up on being able to identify the players' position (DE, OG, which linebacker is what, etc.)

"8 man box defense to be used primarily on 1st and 2nd down vs. all Personnel Groups." - In other words, regardless of whether you're expecting them to run or pass?

Personnel tendencies are different team to team. So there's no hard and fast rule.

Trips to the field means three receivers to the wide side of the field. So it'd the ball is on the left hash, there are the receivers to the right.

I appreciate your patience. What's even greater than that is your willingness to share your knowledge. There are far to many wise folks hogging wonderful stuff all to themselves.

You are a champ, sir.

Dinny

edit: this goes for you, too, Sully. Didn't see your response before I typed this.

Some of you other dweebs can chime in here with me. It takes me forever to type this stuff. I'm on my laptop using HuntNpeck.

When the going gets tough, the tough take a break. When I come back, I got some real doosies about that second image.

I suggest everyone pos rep the heck out of Sorter and Sully.

Dinny

The symbols are just personal preference. X and Y are the two eligible receivers on the LoS, and Z is always the first slot. (Y is typically the TE, if there is one). As for the OL, you just kinda know who they are based on where they are. Many times the center's symbol is square instead of circle, as well, while the rest are round. Same thing for the Q. You just kinda know who the Q is based on alignment, although I've seen some coaches actually put the little squiggle to make his oval and actual "Q."
The shading in the circles shows where the DL alignment is.

Understand that the playbook pictures are install pieces. So while it may say "primarily on 1st and 2nd down," that's just for the purpose of the players learning their own call tendencies. Once the first game comes, game planning throws all that out the window, as does personnel groupings and tendencies. 11 personnel (1 RB, 1 TE) might mean one thing for one opponent, and something completely different for another. But during install, you are just, typically, installing vs pro personnel (2 RB, 1 TE), and a few common formations, since you aren't planning for any opponent.

Sorter, you're more of a back 7 guy than I (or, that's my impression).

What do you think "All Zones are "no run" coverages unless tagged" means? No running with the motion?

Thats how I took it.

"If you'll notice, it states that it's a either Cover 3 (Trey) and Cover 6 (Pack) depending on the offensive alignment. The front can also change by alignment."

This image is kind of dark, so it's hard to see very well. The acronyms and abbreviations in the coaching points are over my head. To be perfectly honest, just about everything in the coaching points is over my head.

1. What is "REDUCE=AUTOMATIC FRONT"?

2. What is YOFF?

3. What is "REDUCE vs. 2 back set (unless YOFF)"?

4. What is "UNDER vs. U/H removed OPEN side (or YOFF)"?

5. What is "OVER ED vs. U/H removed CLOSED side"?

6. What is "RUSH vs. EMPTY"?

7 What is "OPEN $ can check "SKY" vs. 2 BACK SET"?

8. What is "PACK checks "BOX" vs. BUNCH"?

9. What is "STUNTS: TILT"?

10. What is "can also play as REDUCE 23 SKY"?

Dinny

This explains the OL symbols perfectly. I figured you could tell from their place on the page you can spot the guard, etc. The shading in the oval was what was throwing me. I can see now it directs the alignment.

I assumed, as well, that these are just base alignments, and there are a mind boggling number of variations depending on the team or even different personnel groupings within a team.

Groovy stuff. Thanks, Sully.

Dinny

The computer I'm on isn't showing those images, so I can't see specifically.

YOFF would mean the TE is off the LoS.

This defense is, essentially, what I would call a 20 defense (in my terminology, this is the fisrt number is the technique to the strong side, the last number to the weak side, so 20 would mean a 2 and a 0 shade).

The U/H refers to the fullback/H-Back (or any player who is "in" for that guy).
Here's where it might get a little involved
"Under vs U/H removed to open side (or YOFF)"
-This means if the fullback/H-back moves to a slot position away from the TE, the defense goes from a 20, to a 03, which is called "under" (essentially the defense Pendergast ran when he was our DC). If you look at the "Twin" slide, that shows the change in DL alignment.

Ed is the DE to the strong side. Rush is Hali, and S is the OLB opposite the Ed. What the defense does is, if they go to an under front, make sure to put the Ed over the TE (in a 6 tech) so that he isn't hooked (blocked down), and so the SLB can have inside leverage on the #2 receiver.

I can't tell what "Rush" vs empty means, other than maybe telling the Rush backer he's on an automatic go in an empty set.

"Pack checks 'box' to Bunch"

Bunch is when three receivers all line up right near each other.
You know when this happens, one guy is going to run some sort of in route, one guy is going to run some sort of out route, and one guy will run something in the middle. So it's just a zone check that, tells the CB he keeps everything in front of him, and looks for the deep runner, the S backer gets to the flat, and looks for the first route coming outside, and the Safety to that side gets the deepest in cutter. The Mike is probably walling (looking for any crosser).

I'm still struggling with this, because the Rush backer is going vs every front, so I don't know what the check rush or check Ed means.

Oh, I think it widens his alignment, the more I look at it.

Check rush means when they get empty, they align with 2 3-techs, 9 closed, 7 open (assume Y on). Sam is walked out on #2 closed and $ is walked out on #2 open. Coverage changed to Trey.


I'll post the screencaps from the playbook later tonight. For all the hate the Ryan brothers get, they make a very friendly install.

I wasn't even looking at the interior guys
Thanks

Back to this one. Concerning the defense.

C = Cornerback?
$ = Safety? If so, is there a way to tell strong or free? Or does not apply?
N = Nose Tackle?
S = ?
E = ?
T = ?
M = ?
W = ?
R = ?

Could you imagine having to "dummy down" a playbook for me? Probably would have to come up with a more accurate term than dummy.

Dinny

There you go.

Pretty damn cool thread, I knew Sorter was a guru but didnt know Sully understood the game to this level... I'm learning a lot from this, great idea Dinny.

I know what a "good football player" looks like, but this is upper deck player/coach level information that I've never understood at all really, many thanks to all involved.

This thing should be stickied.

I just want to know about the 3-3-6 defense.

Okay, here's the full Reduce install with all of the checks vs. motion/alignments

http://i.imgur.com/kB5qq9l.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/muqFFFj.png

The check Ed is a check to their over ed front. The trips box in the bottom left should clarify things a bit.

http://i.imgur.com/MTqghQ1.png

Fantastic thread. I need to study this as well. I need to learn basics also. Like 3-5 and shit lol

Seconded, great ****ing idea dinny.

Thanks to sully and sorter for the lessons

So I've been exploring the playbook site that the Jets pb came from (because I'm a playbook nerd).

For a ton of the questions you have, the Baylor 2006 defense is very good at explaining the terminology (although there are a ton of typos... because Baylor).

The first few pages discuss alignment, numbering, coverages and names of formations.
This is all good stuff. When you get to the names of formations, just understand that there are a million different names for each formation. For instance, what the Chiefs calls SLOT, I call Twins, and Baylor calls Twins I.

http://www.footballxos.com/download/...42-Defense.pdf

So, figured with this week and our opponent this would be a good place to talk about defending the read option.

I only know what I've run, and what I've heard at clinics (from college coaches).

The key, usually, is the backside DE. Typically that's who the QB is reading (Eric Hicks is so glad he doesn't play against the RO). If the backside DE can squeeze space, but also stay squared, he's got a chance.

Otherwise...

One school of thought , and what I've run, is "Rock and Roll." Your D-Linemen play as if they were playing any zone run (rock), keeping their gap and playing down the line. The difference is that the LBers actually play back a gap (roll), screwing with the read, and putting them in position for the misdirectiscrew
The other thing I've heard, and it makes sense, but I hate it, came from the DLine coach at SMU (also why I thought that DE from there a couple years ago would bust). They teach their D Linemen, on a zone block, to allow themselves to be overtaken, essentially playing back a gap, and let the LBers run to the next gap. This way there's no concern with a DL overrunning a play. I hate that, because I think you teach your DL to be less aggressive with that. LBers are better athletes, and are standing up... Let them be athletes. Let the DL just play their spot. (I also teach my LBers to slow play flow outside, anyway, because I want their pursuit to be inside out.)

DL twists can also screw up the read, but you can't run them all the time as you put your players in low power situations vs OLinemen.


Now, I'll say again... These are HS and college answers. With the speed of the pro players, I doubt they have any special scheme against it, other than, "be aware they do this, and don't get sucked in on the backside." I had the most athletic team I've ever coached, this year, and I don't think I spent more than 5 minutes a week discussing it with them, and we never gave up yardage against it. (Moral: great players make coaches look wicked smaht!)
I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more safety blitzes this week, however.

Cool thanks.

We were always taught to slow play it, the DE and LB's that is, not me. I don't like that technique you described from SMU in that by doing that it creates a lot of trash for Lbs to scrape thru.

Seems discipline a the best way to combat it.