Need a chemist or science person's help on a projecct
 

Okay, this seems gay for a male dominated sports forum but I know there's science people here. So what the hell!

My daughter has a roomate, who is still a student, getting married this August. She loved my seashell tall cylinder vases and asked if I would design her wedding centerpieces like that. She's having a beach-themed wedding.

I can can come up with an idea, sketch it out well and quickly enough...but what if it won't work in the real world? That's where I am having a problem. I don't normally do this kind of project but she's low on funds. So I thought I'd help her out. I am off work for June and most of July.

She wants her sea shells under water, with those floating candles on top. It's a great idea and I've seen them. However, I have taken three of my glass bowls and tested nice white beach sand from my beach here and two kinds of decor sand from the craft store which is made from crushed rocks--one like coast sand with specks in it and the other deeper.

You see these things all over the net BUT the water is clear-- mine is cloudy though.

Now the cloudiness settles and it looks better after a day...but it's still not clear enough to look good. I just did a second rinse to see, after watching a You Tube video on cleaning aquarium sand so that wouldn't look cloudy.

I have researched some aquarium sand/items and but haven't completed it. So is there anything about any other substrate or type of water where it will remain clear? Anything about the chemistry of the water that would help? We have hard water here but I have a water softener which also cleans it too. It's just not reverse osmosis though.
I have some distilled water too.

Funny thing is the beach sand I used remains the clearest. I have some pictures below to show you what I am trying to do. If someone else has done it, then it can be done. There just has to be some missing technology that I don't know to pull it off. S

Some of the pages for these photos make it sound so easy....just fill with water. Voilà! It's done!

Here's samples of what I am doing. Only I am using a 12 inch bubble vase which is round like a half of balloon.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-32S_VNgxtU...s+on+stems.jpg


http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/23...81a6187af9.jpg

This one doesn't have sand at the bottom. I guess I could skip the sand altogether but it doesn't look as nice and the girl liked the sand.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_qVUoD9EHNd...nter-piece.jpg

Have you tried some Flocculant from a pool supply store?

hmmm yes I would venture to say Silicon dioxide + Trimethylhydroxysilane might solve your quandry good sir

Gee, I have a pool and never heard of that. Although, someone handles it for me. So I had to look it up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uuQ77vAV_U

Interesting, but it does say additional skimming and filtration are necessary. Sounds complicated but mine isn't really dirty like that example either--just cloudy. Not excessively cloudy, but not clear either. Not enough to look good. Funny thing is, when I look down into the bowl, instead of a side view, it does look clear.

Thanks. I'll check into that too.

but seriously now thinking about it I dunno if hydrophobic sand would work. Im sure aquarium stores sell clean sand that settles to the bottom really quickly

Well, what the heck is that, especially the second long word?

How do I use it and where do I get it?

Is it expensive?

the cloudiness is from your sand being dirty yo

I looked at aquarium sand products and called Pet Smart who carries a sand. There's different kinds apparently. I watched You Tubes on some aquarium sand products but need to call the makers.

One wedding blog, discussed this, and a person mentioned a sand they had that is epoxy coated that doesn't cloud up. I plan to check it out but don't know what it looks like.

You need to backwash the sand. To do this, put the sand in a tall container, filling it only 1/3 full. You need to introduce the washing water below the sand. You could use a tube or hose connected to the faucet and poke the other end below the sand as deep as you can get it. Turn on the water at a fast enough rate to make the sand boil, but not so fast that the sand goes over the edge of the vessel. Allow the wash water to overflow the vessel. The fines will be washed from the sand leaving clean sand behind.

I know that's a factor but have followed instructions to clean it. That's what people do with aquarium sand so it's clear. However, none of the web pages with those examples did that.

or you can go to your local hardware store and for 3 dollars buy a 50 pound bag of quikrete play sand

Okay. Would my spray nozzle next to my kitchen faucet do that?

I'm a little leery of any sand getting into my sink but I could use the side without the disposal.

Would the water from an outside hose be okay?

Yes, I would do it outside.

Well, I want a natural look -- not colored sand. It's interesting though that it remains dry. Also, it's a bit pricey for one pound. I need minimum 2 lbs per bubble bowl possibly more and per table.

So is hose water clean enough to clean the sand?

I was simply showing you what he was talking about.

Use vodka instead of water, or 151 that would be exciting.

Hmm...that's another idea. Plus it's cheap enough for me to test. The real sand from my beach actually looks the best so far...even better than expensive decor sand.

Yes.

Ha! Ha! Too expensive tho'! :LOL:

Just tell her *uck it, cant be done.

Oh! Oops! :)

I was just thinking I could tell her," no water; just sand. That beggars can't be choosey. That would be mean tho.'

Now that I'm into it, I'd like to make it work. Then I can use the idea for myself too. They look beautiful.

Can you not just put it in a cheesecloth or some kind of fine filter and run water through it? The really fine stuff would flow through and leave you with the easily settled stuff.

At least, that's my theory.

Ethylene glycol

Pour in the sand and arrange it exactly how you want it. Apply a light coat of a clear sealant. Wait for the sealant to dry. Add water, shells and candles. You may want to add some shells to the sand before you seal it up to make the sealant/water layer less noticeable.

I would NOT recommend play sand. It's super fine, so any slight disturbance and it will kick up and cloud the water for a while.

You want something with a bigger grain. I recommend pool filter sand.

This is how you wash it:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/6EwuzVqEIL4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Do you not have a washing machine ? Simple solution would be to dump all your sand into your washer. I'd set it on heavy duty. When its done just scoop it out and into the dryer it goes.

You can thank me later.

I have actually thought of using a cheesecloth. Gonna try the backwashing first and then try backwashing that sandbox sand. They'd just have to buy a lot of cheesecloth. I don't think she'd want to do that. But I might try it if the first three things don't work. I think the third would be the first suggestion.

I'm not following. What kind of sealant? Are you talking each particle or an overall layer of something. Just need more data.

Pool sand? What's that, since pools don't have sand.

The video is for aquariums. The guy doesn't say what kind of sand that is per se. It sounds, from the comments, that the guy just had used any sand--not aquarium sand. I looked at that technique earlier and am going to try it. I saw some cloudiness in other videos, but that was just at first. It settles later.

The decor sand I am testing, by cleaning, is a larger grain since it is made of crushed rocks. But it's actually cloudier than the sand from my beach. After a second wash they've improved....but not enough. Have to try the backwashing.

:spock:

It's the same water coming out of your sink faucet.

Please re read what I wrote. Pool filter sand.

Yes, the video is for aquariums, but that is how you wash sand for whatever application. Not recommended for play sand, due to how light the grains are.

Edit: Also, pool filter sand will not require washing.

Our sink or home water is not very good. I have to add another filter in my shower even. It ruins sinks and faucets with deposits and my hair.

Ah, yes, you did. I just went and look at what it is and how it works.

cdcox's method is exactly what I would do. The key is vertical height, you want a pretty tall container versus the depth of sand. You are trying to float the lightweight particles out of the container while keeping the heavier and typically coarser particles at the bottom.

The Rube-Goldberg, kitchen science experiment approach that would be fun to try is to make a homemade dense media separator using a sugar syrup as the media. The concept is used in mineral processing with great success. You want a liquid with a high specific gravity (density) so that the less-dense particles remain suspended in the liquid and the more-dense particles sink.

I'd make a pretty concentrated simple syrup (just like for making cocktails) so that your media is pretty dense, but not so dense that it just gums everything up. I'd start with a gallon of water or so and probably about that much sugar. Make the syrup and then put about a cup or two of it in a tall glass to test it. Stir in the sand to get it good and mixed up and then watch how it settles. If you have a lot of stuff floating and a good amount of sand at the bottom then it probably worked alright. I'd then carefully pour off the liquid while things are still floating around and suspended in the liquid so you are left with the heavy sand in the bottom. Then I'd rinse that sand really well to get the sugar off and see if it's cloudy at all as you are rinsing it. You should see pretty quickly if it's working or not as the sugar, while sticky, shouldn't cloud the water.

If everything sinks quickly in your test glass then I'd add more sugar to the rest of the main mixture and try again.

Once you have a mixture that gives you clean sand it's time to scale it up to something like a glass pitcher and process the rest of the sand that you need.

That's way more work than cdcox's method, but would be tons more fun.

Yeah, that is a ton of work. Don't know if I have the time, especially for a freebie.

What I don't get is that instructions under the stem vase picture I posted actually states:

Just pour in some sand, add water, your shell(s) then top with your floating candle....so easy!

That was why I thought it was also our water here. That is after I did one cleaning ( not your way) and allowing it to settle.

The explanation as to how cdcox's method works and extra tips helps though.

It would probably be about that easy if you had really clean sand to begin with. Natural sand won't be that clean though. If you still suspect your water try it with distilled water and see how it looks.

My guess is that after several minutes of washing your sand in the bucket and hose you will have pretty clean sand that will work just fine. It just takes a lot of washing to get it good and clean.

I could always switch to river rock on the bottom...but that would cost more money for her. Perhaps just use shells on the bottom.

I do think I need to do that backwashing technique first. I am going to try it this weekend. Already the simple rinses so far have helped....just not enough. Shows a change though. I have some bowls with distilled water in them now.

Here's the kicker, the natural sand from my beach is still the clearer over the expensive decor sand. Odd 'eh? I think so.

I also, just found a wedding blog with another woman having the same problem. Those craft sites need to do a better job on how this is done.

Isn't there some sort of liquid glue you can use to make a slurry, pour in the glass and then place the shells? Wait for it to dry, then glue in more shells if needed.

Benefits being that you shouldn't have to worry about cloudiness (maybe rinse a time or two after drying), and when they get knocked over sitting on the table you only have to worry about water and not sand everywhere. Just fill it up again and relight the candle.

The tables are large enough where I am not worried about the centerpieces being knocked. Well unless, of course, a drunken brawl breaks out or the bride's bouquet lands in the bowl of the centerpiece. Lol!

If that happens, I don't think any one expects it to remain in place.

Also, the shells don't need to be glued. They stay down there on the sand. I would think that glue would ruin the glass at the bottom too. I'm sure there are going to be people wanting to take a centerpiece home or at least keep the bowl. There's always a few women that do that.

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I see. Any particular sealant you know of that would work?

Backwashing both the beach and decor sand did it. In fact, it did a beautiful job. (lost some sand tho')

Then I refilled, added shells, using one with tap water and one with distilled. Both were clear and the shells could be seen. The distilled was even a bit clearer.

Test ran some floating tea lights, turned down lights and they looked beautiful. I'm excited now.

Thanks! Much appreciated.

Still, gonna check out the other sands mentioned, mainly to see what they look like and pricing. That's for design reasons though.

Another reason I asked was because we use re-claimed water for the outside on the lawn which is a different pipe from the county. Now I just found out this weekend, that our hose has a by-pass valve that switches the water into my home from filtered that comes into my sink's faucet to non-filtered which comes out of my hose so our pool can be filled. That was my concern. I don't have anything to do with the outside maintenance of my home—except for how it looks.

Just came back from Ace Hardware to check out that pool filter sand.

My gawd! It's the exact same thing as the decor sand, at least in looks, which I brought in to compare. Got a little to take home and lying it side by side, you can't tell the difference. So even at Big Lots for $3 you only get 2lbs of sand.Turns out I ned 6lbs per bubble vase. With this filter sand you get, a 50 lb bag. Perfect for a wedding on a tight budget. Saves a ton and I don't have to go back to the beach for more natural sand--although that does have a nice but different look.

Found out, aquarium hobbyists use it because it doesn't cloud their water. Still gonna test if first tho'.

Thanks silock. Also cdcox and prhom.

NP

Your pH is too high. Try adding a bit of acid to the mix to clear things up. A few drops of vinegar might work. The free H+ scavenge all sorts of murky things.

Won't that smell? Don't want a centerpiece to smell like pickles.

Pool filter sand pours clear immediately. Doesn't even stir-up dust, like you said silock, when drizzling water down the side into the bowl.

It's even getting clearer, with just a short amount of time passing. This bowl is even clearer than the other two, even with tap water.
Didn't think it would get clearer. So this will save me a lot of time too.