Wouldn't that make him 3rd tier with an avg #2 being about 45th?

Depends on how you define it. If you do it the same way as Allard Baird, it's a disaster.

If you define it as a guy like Kolten Wong, Joe Pederson in the LA system, etc. it works out just fine. Same thing with a Tyler Skaggs.


Santana PROBABLY is worth somewhere between a 50 and top 75 sort, by himself, to the right team.

It makes him worthy of being a starter, and that's an absurdity as we all know.


It really doesn't matter how often a guy bats or how many IP he throws, if he's destroying value in teh process. Hell, I want a guy playing LESS if he's a negative WAR player.

Where are you getting that WAR number for Francoeur?

fWAR has him at -0.9. bWAR has him at -0.8.

Sticking with Fangraphs (because it's hard to get a BRef listing by WAR that goes beyond a Top 10), that's 207th out of 213 players who have played the OF in the major leagues this season.

That pumped me up, and glad to hear they won't be sellers for once. I hate that part of the game.

How likely do you see this possibility?

I don't know if the Cards really will dangle Wong, but it's a possibility. And he's a 2B who is ranked in the right range to make it worth KC's while to deal Santana.

KC MUST get a prospect valuable enough to dump the chance at a comp pick for Santana.

I wasn't aware he's now with SD and stinking up the joint there, 2-18 so far. I think his WAR is actually getting worse from when I saw it last a few weeks back. But yes it's 0.9. Now where does Guthrie rank on fWAR among all qualifers?

He has been in negatives all year, except maybe for the first week. He's with San Francisco, though, not San Diego.

Guthrie ranks 70/71, which doesn't surprise me. 3rd starter types are where the qualification cut-offs start... as the No. 4 and 5 spots typically bounce for a lot of teams.

He's a fringe No. 3/solid No. 4 starter.

fWAR for pitchers ranks Wade Davis (39th overall) higher than each of the following:

Jeff Locke
Kris Medlen
Paul Maholm
Tommy Millone
Andrew Cashner
Jeremy Hefner
Wade Miley
Kyle Lohse
Jarrod Parker
Bronson Arroyo
Ryan Dempster
Chris Tillman

Is there a SINGLE guy on that list you legitimately think is WORSE than Wade Davis?

If Guthrie is below replacement value then Davis and Chendoza sure as hell are to. Which three replacement level guys are you supposed to replace them with again? Would it be correct to say someone that has an even 0 WAR is not easily replaceable?

From the eyeball test, I would have to agree. FG gives tons of credit for normalizing HR rates on fly balls and he's been stung a bit. The problem with Davis is his defenders say "he'll revert to his career data". Problem is his career data includes stints in the pen. I'm sure Hoch's data has improved this year over his career too.

At least we're not the Marlins?

They're hosting a Legends of Wrestling night in August.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/ey...restling-night

WAR... WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR??? ABSOLUTELY NOTHIN.

I can assure you, that back in the 1980's I dangled Wong in St. Louis on many occasions....

Chris Getz up, Johnny G down

Herrera for Teaford as well

uh.

Bob Dutton ‏@Royals_Report 2m
#Royals option 2B Johnny Giavotella and LHP Everett Teaford to AAA Omaha. Plan to recall RHP Kelvin Herrera and 2B Chris Getz.


Gio got a grand total of 38 plate appearances.

:facepalm:

Our time!

For those of you counting at home, that was 10 games and 38 PA's for Gio.

Look, guys, someone's gotta be held accountable for that 5-game losing streak.

W
T
F
??

**** this team

I'm done this season. I'll watch if it's convenient and I've got nothing better to do, but spending stretches of my life watching this organization flounder and make the same mistakes over and over is no longer a part of my existence.

Oh, and while I've ever so slightly been a GMDM apologist, if he's fired tonight it would be perfectly acceptable to me.

Dayton's response today to the Royals Reality-based Community:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yT1nJomzoM...ouble-bird.jpg

Rany Jazayerli ‏@jazayerli 2m
Only way this day could be worse is if the Royals promoted Chris Getz and sent Johnny Giavotella back to Omaha. What's that? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm in full-on "I hope they lose the next seven games" mode.

So we bring up 2 of the guys that were responsible for losing 12 of 14??

Just wait until we reacquire Francoeur for the stretch run.

http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u.../Photo0209.jpg ROYALS!!!!!

Getz was hitting .313 at Omaha. How can you keep that kind of bat down there?

I am SO going to love listening to St. John tomorrow morning

Don't forget about the grit!

With an impressive .313 OBP!



Rany is obliterating the Royals right now.

Well.......bye Dayton

You know, if they had sent Gio down so as to play Ciriaco at 2B, it still would've been stupid based on Gio's 38 PA's. But at least they would be turning toward someone new.

But Getz? GETZ?

So then just cut Gio?

if they are doing this then they must be just done with him.


no future with Getz

Getz has pics of Dayton or Glass....right?


It has to be....

This is just rearranging deck chairs and they didn't even give Gio a chance this time... but at the same time I think the reaction is more anti-Getz than anything. I don't think Gio has done anything at any level to really prove he's any better than Getz. Which is strange because Gio has been decent at taking walks in the minors... at the major league level he's been worse than Francoeur. It's like he's a different player.

By the way, if you really want to gouge your eyes out, there's a one hour special about Hawk Harrelson on MLB Network right now.

It's like he knows he has 10 games to prove he is George Brett or he will be sent down so some sack of shit no talent ****wad can steal at bats and not play defense.

I don't have the stats up so I might be slightly off, but he's played about 50 games each of the last couple years. I agree it's not a massive sample size. I'm not saying this is a good move. But he's played about 100 games at the MLB level and hasn't shown he's anything more than a younger Getz with slightly more power and less walks.

Maybe being the Marlins doesn't look so bad now.

I'll say this.....if the Royals are having problems developing Moose, Hosmer and other top picks, what makes anyone think they could develop Gio?

None of that matters... Getz is Daytons boy. Getz is a lifelong Royal now. He will be the starting second baseman as long as DM is the GM. Today's move proves it.

Gio just turned 26... he's a little bit older than those other guys. So he may just been entering his prime, but he is probably running out of time here.

At least Getzy has cool walk-up music.

:/

:clap: Glad someone took that bait.

P.S. Dayton Moore is one astoundingly stupid mother****er.

Me too...

I can't wait till GMDM is gone..

All of our 2B options are shit.

Wong doesn't really have a spot in STL right now, with Carpenter being what he's been and projecting what he does.

If Carpenter could hit 25 HR's I'd put him at 3rd, move Wong up and move right along. However, he can't so Wong is expendable.

I was actually thinking about a deal involving Wong to KC today. WIth you guys dearth of talent at 2b anywhere, I think he'd be a good idea in KC. But I was thinking alot bigger.

Depending what happens with you guys the next couple weeks, if things bottom out, I'd send Wong, Wacha, and anyone else you wanted outside of anyone with the big club now and Taveras to KC for Shields.

I thought Dayton said there's no substitute for a young player facing MLB pitching?

Royals players look awesome in the minors and shitty at the majors because they are mentally weak.

Economic landscape hash"5 gotten better

Dayton Moore cannot trade James Shields. It would be career suicide unless the return for him was overwhelming.

He would HAVE to get Taveras back from St. Louis to consider the deal. And it would probably have to be Taveras + something else.

Not saying St. Louis SHOULD offer that, saying that's what it would take to get him or to make it worth KC's while.

THoughts on the return of the Getz...

This is Dayton Moore at his worst.

Chris Getz is a bad to terrible major league player. I know it. You know it. Anyone who follows the game with an eye on stats knows it.

He might be a great guy. He might be a real strong Christian. He might like going hunting with Ned Yost and Frenchy in the offseason, and Jon Broxton, too. He might try really hard and grind and be a great clubhouse example.

But the guy's attributes end there.

This is Dayton Moore at his worst.

His extreme loyalty to players who have shown not only that they are not GOOD major league players, but in fact are BAD major league players (Horacio Ramirez, Kyle Davies, Luke Hochevar, Jeff Francoeur, Ross Gload, Chris Getz) is by far his biggest failing (and I don't say that lightly).

When Dayton Moore is gone in two years and he is sitting back and wondering where it went wrong, this should be a big part of the realization. But it won't...

Because this is Dayton Moore at his worst.

Welp, when the first (and usually only) answer to failure is, "you're trying too hard and over-thinking it", you tend to get weak minds.

I'm not lost on the concept of over-thinking a putt in golf - I can connect those theoretical dots - but this ain't golf and rarely does a golfer miss the ball, they simply miss the hole. I'd be happy if when our guys over-thought their shit and followed it up with trying to hard, they'd actually make contact the the ****ing ball!

So, like it was years ago, it's still time to tell these guys to be scared because you'll fire them (and then fire a few), and tell them when they fail, they need to try even harder. Take MANY more hours of BP, study the ****ing game, neglect you family (like the rest of the world does in this day and age!), and get in the ****ing gym and don't come out until you're a ****ing beast. Essentially live and breath THIS GAME and every possible aspect of it, forsake all else, for the glory of the game and the glory of becoming an idol.... And if you juice, make sure you're two steps ahead of testers. But let them know it's fully supported. For it, for that time you spend in bed each night, you can have a different hot chick to fulfill your desires - and that's what it's all about at that age. Spend 10-12 years as a stud, then go back and find one of those hot chicks, marry her, have 2.5 kids and ride off into the sunset at a loved hero instead of somebody who was/is a joke who played (badly) for the Royals...

Try that mindset for 7 years and let's see where it gets us!

For the discussion of Moore, yeah probably so after what he gave up to get Shields, to trade him a half year later would likely mean the guy is moving on.

However, I don't necessarily think Shields is a lockdown #1 so I wouldn't be moving Tavares for that, when I could potentially give up Tavares plus for Cliff Lee.

My main reasoning for said trade was dependent on if the Royals thought they were going to be able to re sign Shields or if they thought he was walking after next season. If he's walking, I don't necessarily think you can get too picky, but you can also just let him play it out here in KC then walk and take the pick.

Although, in said trade, you could potentially get your 2b for the next decade, a mid rotation guy in Wacha, and whatever else you wanted in the trade.

In the end though, It's not a move Moore or the Royals would or likely could make.

I think Wacha is hype machine, BTW, too. I didn't like him much coming out of the draft, and I think he tops out as a No. 3 or 4 starter in the major leagues.

Part of me almost hopes Dayton Moore makes the move. It would be the last nail in his coffin.

It just depends with Wacha. If he develops a 3rd plus pitch, he could be a solid 2 fringe 1, but thats highly unlikely.

I think he's a 3,4 like you said. He's got the potential to be a solid innings eater.

We could dump James' 20M onto owners who care about winning. Don't forget that part of it. Just like we dumped Zack's 27M onto Milwaukee and took back 2 turds in Cain/Escobar. As it's now obvious to all, that was not a "talent deal'. It was another Glass salary dump.

No.

Those two turds will likely have contributed about 12 WAR by the end of the season (in 4.5 seasons).

There's also the Jake Odorizzi piece, without which the James Shields deal probably doesn't get done.

Greinke deal was not a salary dump.

So? Greinke did 8.4 by himself in only 2 years. A much more compressed time frame. He was vastly superior to that duo by himself. Of course, he did cost a lot more. And you know where I'm going with that right?

And they control both Escobar and Cain for many more years. I wouldn't be surprised if they get 25-30 WAR from those two over the course of their careers with KC. They're both guys who have value driven by their glove, but value is value.

Also don't forget they traded a malcontent (who, BTW, personally blocked a trade that would have returned Jordan Zimmermann and Ian Desmond) who was known to be demanding a trade.

There is more than enough evidence to use against Dayton Moore, to critique him with, without ripping on this trade. Same thing with Glass.

I’m torn between wanting duncan to continue arguing with the dumbshit because I enjoy his takes, and feeling sad that he is wasting his breath arguing with a dumbshit.

He wouldn't be arguing with me so often if he really thought I was dumb. It's simple really: all you have to do is use objective data, and that will allow intelligent people (not you) to debate. Can't do that with people who just throw out opinions with no substance.

Honestly you could probably learn something watching us discuss this stuff.

So, I have a question: Dayton Moore said "it could take 10 years" to re-build the Royals. So let's test him on that one. I took a look at the rosters of MLB teams in 2006 when Dayton assumed the GM role here in KC. And guess what? Very few players in the entire league are still with their teams. That means EVERY OTHER GM was forced to build a new roster in the past 8 years just like Dayton had to.


2006 Cards: C Yadier Molina, CL Adam Wainright.
2006 A's: <none>
2006 Rays: Ben Zobrist
2006 Pirates: <none> (Here's their team if you want to laugh: http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/PIT/2006.shtml)



I could do that for any team really and we'll find the same thing: all teams have to rebuild in the time DM says it takes to rebuild a team. Only question left is what was in the pipeline. Pittsburgh had Neil Walker & McCutcheon but then again, KC had Butler & Gordon so that's a wash. Here were the 2006 system rankings:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today...006/26854.html

I notice you left out Milwaukee's acquisition of Jean Segura for Zack. Segura (3.2 WAR) is outdoing the duo (2.8 WAR) all by himself. This significantly alters your future WAR calcs.

Wong, Wacha, and Taveras for Shields? Can we make you John Mozeliak for a day to get this deal done. To be honest though, you should win pretty easy with Wainwright and Shields. That would be two workhorses in the rotation for the playoffs.

Why would I look at that? The question is: Did the Royals get appropriate value for Zack Greinke?

They got two young, above-average starters who provide plus defense at premium defensive positions, guys they control for a long time. They also got a few minor league pieces, one of whom flamed out and one of whom was a key piece in acquiring James Shields.

Jean Segura, a top 75-100 prospect, flukily turning into something he's NEVER been before (and regressing significantly - he's slugging .411 since June 1, which lends some credence to the thought many had early - that his power was not sustainable) has nothing to do with what the Royals acquired for Greinke.

Because you can't talk about long term WAR values of what KC got but not what Milwaukee got. Jean Segura is clearly part of the Greinke deal because they got him for Greinke. They traded Cain, Escobar, Odorizzi for 2 years Zack + Jean Segura.


But let's assume you're right and we'll just invalidate Segura entirely. Let's stipulate that. So what? The Royals traded for a CF with 2.0 WAR. Their backup Dyson already has 0.8 WAR in 1/4 the at-bats. Why on Earth did we give up something so valuable as Zack to get a player who's no better than what we already have? Admit, it's a great question no?

We'd have to include Greg Holland and probably Starling.

Wait wait wait, Wong, Wacha, and anyone not named Taveras or anyone wiht the big club.

Done. A million times done.

You would be the best GM in history if you could bring along convenient hindsight.

So in just a month of play, Will Myers has almost equaled Moose in HRs and will probably surpass Butler and Hosmer before years end... :facepalm:

I get your point and it's disgusting that this team's ownership is too greedy and self-serving to solve the problem. You're right, but had we kept him, a very sorely needed bat, we'd have pitching that's getting rocked. So we'd lose, perhaps, 7-5 instead of 4-3.

Glass is committed to teaching this city a lesson by ripping our hearts out, for having a heart, and it shows. Just like he proved when he ran Wal-Mart; you're lucky to have a job/team, don't ask for anything more.

For what he's doing to a very nice city, I hate Glass. Words can't express how badly I'd enjoy watching him have a personal crisis that reduced him to a huddled mass - poor, wet, cold, helpless and in poor health. I could be wrong, but I suspect few in his family are there for anything but his money, so take that away and he'd get what he deserves. Perhaps that's why he keeps the money coming in, he's bought faux love and commitment from those closest to him. Like the players who are victims of being on his team, who can't wait to leave (if they're actually good), I suspect his family is the same. People like him need to be reduced to that for a while to teach them a lesson about their greed and show them how close to being Satan's seed they really are.

Good morning....

JFC
Posted via Mobile Device

Wow

And the Royals have won 8 of the last 9 games started by James Shields.


Still not mad about the trade.

Ok, where do you see that?

:spock:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/07/21/e9u9e2es.jpg