I'm no expert, but it doesn't surprise me too much. The numbers are going to climb still as people start finding people who were "lost." But I'd think that it's VERY likely that you'll be injured by a tornado, but less likely that you'll actually be killed. In other words, if your roof flies off and the walls cave in, you will likely be trapped underneath a bunch of rubble, but as long as it doesn't come down on you too hard, it's survivable.

They said they had around 17 minutes worth of warning. Surely that helped some.

On a side note, why do people keep saying that Joplin doesn't have basements? (Legitimate question.)

Is there something about its history that made people think that tornadoes weren't a problem or something?

Yea, how that’s not an F5 I don’t know.

Because they're classified by windspeed, not diameter.

If it's like Tulsa, it's a water table issue.

The scale has to do with the SEVERITY of the storm - not the SIZE. This obviously caused a huge amount of damage, but if you look at the pictures of individual houses, it doesn't seem as bad as the pictures from Greensburg, for example. In Joplin, the houses are giant piles of rubble. In Greensburg, it was more a question of "what houses?"

Friend said it should be in the local paper soon, so I'll keep an eye on the website and let you know.

I believe it may have more to do with the composition of the soil than anything else. Here in the Dallas area, there's only a handful of homes with basements because of the expansion/contraction of the clay. Not entirely sure if that's the issue in Joplin though.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.

Greensburg would fit in the path of this one

And mine doesn't? :p

I don't know if that is accurate I read stories where people went into their basements.

Again, size vs. severity.

That makes sense. I assume they calculate that with Doppler?

You're too slow! But seriously, regardless of the specifics, the idea that there's something in the ground that makes it tough is what I wasn't thinking of.

I believe I misspoke. While windspeed is part of the fujita scale, it appears that post storm damage calculations are weighted more.

Technically, the classify them based on the types of damage caused rather than raw wind speed. That's because the wind is only part of the issue. Pressure differentials make a big difference as well.

I'm NOT an expert on this, but my understanding is that it's things like "snapped branches = one level, de-barked trees = another" rather than a strict definition.

IIRC, the debris type enters the mix. I remember something about 2x4s being embedded into tree trunks, or something.

This brings a whole new dimension to what my Earth Science professor, when lecturing on specific types of cloud formations, called "SLCs" or "Scary Looking Clouds."

Huh.

As with the Fujita scale, the Enhanced Fujita Scale remains a damage scale and only a proxy for actual wind speeds.

True, but size and damage typically go hand in hand.

http://www.carthagepress.com/newsnow...in-generations

Joplin tornado deadliest in Mo. in generations

JOPLIN, Mo. —

The tornado that destroyed a broad swath of Joplin ranks as the deadliest to hit Missouri in more than a century.

At least 116 deaths from Sunday's tornado had been confirmed by Monday afternoon.

The federal Storm Prediction Center says the worst tornado in Missouri's history hit St. Louis on May 27, 1896, leaving an estimated 255 people dead.

The toll in Joplin exceeds those of two other major tornadoes, which also occurred in the southern tier of Missouri.

In the southwestern town of Marshfield, an estimated 99 people were killed by a tornado on April 18, 1880. And on May 9, 1927, a tornado killed an estimated 98 people were killed in the southeastern city of Poplar Bluff.

This is the best explanation I have found.

What I'm reading is that this means that a tornado that has 300 mph winds wouldn't be classified as an F5 if it doesn't plow into a city and cause crazy amounts of damage. shrug.

Also they have changed the scale from F# to EF#, the new system is much more detailed. But an EF4 is an extremely strong tornado, nothing to sneeze at for sure.

Right, but it's not the AMOUNT of damage that makes a difference. You can have an EF5 tornado in the middle of the country that doesn't do anything but blow around some trees, or you can have an F1 tornado that cuts through the middle of Kansas City and does millions of dollars of damage.

This is significant because 1) it was a relatively powerful storm (EF4) and 2) it took a direct path through a highly-populated area. But that doesn't mean that an EF5 wouldn't have been far, far worse.

I don't BELIEVE that's true, but I could be wrong.

This is crazy. Was in the running for a job there not too long ago.

If that city consisted of buildings that could withstand 300 mph winds, I guess so.

thanks :thumb:

Consider if a tornado happened a hundred miles away from any human habitation: Regardless of wind speed it is not going be classified as an F whatever, because there was no damage. No?

Perhaps. I guess the issue is that there might not be anything to USE in the classification. They normally walk around and see how different types of structures were damaged, so theoretically, if there were no structures, I'm not sure they could classify them.

However, consider another scenario with a single uninhabited house in the middle of nowhere that was completely wiped off the map (nothing left but a foundation). I THINK they could still theoretically classify that as EF5. But again, it's a little tough to decipher the articles since it's a scientific system rather than a simple "if X then Y" kind of deal.

Here's a reasonable real-life example of the concept I'm talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elie,_Manitoba_tornado

Fairly remote. It still caused $39 million in damage, but no deaths. Even so, houses were wiped off of their foundation, so they called it F5 (before the EF scale was implemented).

http://www.spc.noaa.gov/efscale/

Over the years, the F-Scale has revealed the following weaknesses:

* It is subjective based solely on the damage caused by a tornado
* No recognition in difference in construction
* Difficult to apply with no damage indicators
o if the 3/4-mile wide tornado does not hit any structures, what F-scale should be assigned?

There are plenty of Basements in Joplin, but most of them are in the areas where there are more hills. If you have a basement in a relatively flat area of town (where the tornado hit) and it rains really hard your basement will get flooded.

The Enhanced Fujita Scale

When the committee met to develop the Enhanced Fujita Scale (see original document) one point was made very clear: it must continue to support and maintain the original tornado database.; In other word, there must be some conformity to that of the F-Scale that is listed in the database. Other ideas were agreed to including:

* Consistent Assessment of Damage
o enhance description of damage with examples and photos
+ include not only structures, but also vegetation

So based on that and your previous link, it seems like the original F scale would have simply called storms in uninhabited areas as "unclassified," while the new EF scale should theoretically classify even those that don't do anything but damage trees.

I guess so.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...9812.726891164

Here are some interesting pics.

Posted this link last night and has been updated with quite a bit more pictures.....

http://www.flickr.com/search/show/?q=joplin&s=rec

I was just getting ready to post something similar. When I went to MSSU (When I went, it was MSSC). There were several houses with basements, but not in the area the tornado hit.

I think you need to have a talk with my wife. ;)

Ditto on your thoughts....I'm just not that familiar with the soil in Joplin.

I think Pizza by Stout is gone....

:crybaby:

Brian Williams of NBC news is from joplin?

30%

He got his start at KOAM

Fortunately, I have a basement. It is in the south part of town, on 44th street. Close to the damage.... and Freeman and St. Johns. There are a lot of hills in my part of town.

I saw the tornado, probably about the time it crossed Main. Went out to help a friend's family, shortly after the tornado. They lived straight west of St. Johns. Absolute devastation there. I've never seen anything like that..... and hope never to again. So many people displaced. Put my arms around an elderly lady, who was sitting in the street in her kitchen chair. She was crying, but said she was OK. She couldn't contact family, as her cell phone wouldn't work, so I let her use mine.

It's probably posted in this thread somewhere, but businesses along Rangeline are a mess. Home Depot, Walgreens, Westco, IHOP, Sonic, Pizza Hut, Macadoodles, Jim Bob's, Walmart, Academy Sports, and too many others to mention are destroyed or badly damaged.

How about some links to confirm. Although the link might still be inaccurate even from a news source.

The Joplin Tornado Info page on facebook said 75%.

I would venture a guess 75 percent of Joplin's business area was destroyed, not 75 percent of the whole town.

Not really. 75% of the town is not accurate. More likely 35%, mostly residential. Although it did destroy key buildings.

Serious lack of communications. Thats why

it understandable.
sec

Also, 75% sounds sexier to the media ghouls.

That is correct.

the difference might also be damaged vs destroyed

and jason bourne is from nixa.

The 75% comment came from an immediate reaction between and interviewer and a victim that originated last night.

On that note, any Joplonians that might be involved with the clean-up efforts let me know what kind of assistance I can give.

Brian Williams on TWC right now.

Friends of the family (a couple) took refuge in their apartment bathroom when they heard the alarm. After the storm, emergency workers had to rescue them because the bathroom door was completely blocked by debris from the rest of their totally destroyed and gone apartment.

Lucky, lucky, lucky.

I predict that this couple will ultimately become parents of either the POTUS or the Antichrist because they survived due to some kind of fortuitous destiny type fate deal or whatnot.

FAX

Serious lightning in the background.

My 82 year old Uncle had grabbed some blankets and was headed into a closet when the windows blew out. The wind blew him into the closet and slammed the door behind him. The closet ended up being the only room left with a ceiling. He is alive and well and so is all his immediate family that lived in Joplin. Very lucky.

Wow

I'm just now watching this on TV. My heart absolutely breaks for those in Joplin. Everyone is in my prayer.

I was impressed by his admission that he hung out at the Red Lion back in the day. Anyone who hung out at the Lion is OK by me.

I have many friends in Joplin, and thank God they are all OK.

I'm still mildly concerned about Tribal Warfare and RedandGold. Hopefully they're just without internet access.

I hear you. My heart is just crushed for those people. All my Chiefs brothers and sisters I pray, pray, pray for you all.

I hope we hear from them soon. This is awful.

i know this has been posted, buuuuut......

local news here just reported 1/4th of joplin is destroyed.

I have one of the original 4' mirrors from the Red Lion hanging on my wall right now.

I didn't know TW & R&G were from this area.

Anyone see that guy from the Weather channel reporting?

I think the video is at weather.com

He was choked up pretty much thru the entire video. Paused a few times. I would imagine that kind of destruction would be overwhelming.

Tomorrow still not looking good. National Weather Service using very strong wording...

I seen him from the beginning. Unbelievable. It left me speechless. I feel so sorry for all of you that have loved ones friends ect. down there in Joplin.

THE GOVERNMENT IS MANUFACTURING A TORNADIC EVENT/teedubya

Being from the area and now living where I do, this whole thing has made me incredibly sad for the people of Joplin. Two years ago, we dealt with something eerily similar when Parkersburg, IA was completely leveled. And now, it happens to Joplin.

The wonderful part was how everyone pitched in to help the people of Parkersburg. Now, people are doing the same for Joplin. It's a sad, sad story and yet the willingness of people to help out others in need provides hope.

They are telling us to CYA here in OKC for tomorrow.

Said we should embrace for the worst here...

He's not allowed to talk about it in this thread, so let's enforce the same rule for everyone else.

the news from Joplin is hitting news wires in Africa and Australia