You're not making any sense, Marcellus. I realize this is a common trait for you, but instead of quoting me on multiple occasions in order to make some kind of "point", how about using your own voice to convey your thoughts?

Or is that too strenuous for you?

Very good information here. Thanks. Messing with hormones is infinitely more complicated that most people realize. The way the endocrine system works with the nervous system makes it literally impossible to predict what does/could happen when you alter the process. It's never as simple as "Take this, and then this will happen." We just don't know enough about the process.

Commercials these days relating to LowT are nothing but fear mongering bullshit. I'd hate to think how many people these days are taking Testosterone therapy for the wrong reasons. But it's insanely profitable, because it relies so heavily on self-defined "Quality of life" metrics. It's scary that so many people are taking it not because an actual doctor recommended it, but because a janky LowT shop convinced them that they needed it. There are certainly valid uses for it, but more often than not it's being pushed as a trendy health fad.

:facepalm:

Not sure what you're face palming about. I got no reason to lie.

So it's a Congressional issue? Well, that isn't surprising. But I would think that if people could actually make money legally creating anabolic steroids and doctors could earn money prescribing them, there'd be a bigger movement to make them legal. Right?

There is bro. It's already happening.

No one here is the least bit surprised by this.

That's fine. I don't care. No need to be snarky about it.

The Guardian when he found out he made left bench:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/bsFBYq_h_J0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

hah hah

No joke. I'm friends with Andrew.

People get pissed off about this subject, and I can't figure out why.

Check out a guy named Patrick Arnold, former Balco chemist.

I think it's a stereo type issue. I'm getting the impression people view all users as guys like Jersey Shore douche bags, when in reality every day people with every day jobs like security guards, cops, firemen, teachers and computer programmers. I like my gym members better than your average guy walking the street. I can relate more to people that are busting their ass(yes even users bust their ass) and trying to better themselves then some slob at a bar stool. From my experience most of the guys I know in the gym and very cool guys and love helping out the novice lifters, but maybe that is just more of the midwest values. There is a level of respect given to each other.

WTF?

What chu mean dawg? I mean Andy and I are friends. Have been for a few years now.

But who gives a shit? Some dude wants to look and feel a little better, so he uses HGH... Why would that piss off a complete stranger?

That's just incredibly random.

Ahh, I see. That's usually jealousy to a point and again it's perceived that they might be attention whores even if that's not the case. I see hard work and dedication even if chemically enhanced, but I saw Hamas used the term "lazy" earlier and those guys are anything but so there is a perception problem. I busted my ass before TRT and I bust my ass after TRT I just now see better results. Walking 45 minutes on a step mill is damn tough no matter what you are taking.

Oh ok. you put up the vid of him.

Man I loved tren. It made me strong as hell and it cleared up my skin. However, it would give me coughing fits instantly after injecting. It felt like I had some itchy phlegm deep down in my lungs that I couldn't cough out.

Honestly the level of dipshit in this thread has increased exponentially mostly run by internet 'experts' who don't actually know what they're talking about but since they read it on some steroid board they think they do. I could dismiss the purely asinine claims being made lately but honestly it's not worth my time. Frankly after I post here I'll put this shit on thread ignore because if people want to keep talking out their asses about it being safe by all means go right ahead.

Here are the issue with steroid abuse. The first set is ones in all honesty I don't think anyone will argue about...

QUOTE]Anabolic steroid abuse in athletes has been associated with a wide range of adverse conditions, including hypogonadism, testicular atrophy, impaired spermatogenesis, gynaecomastia, and psychiatric disturbance[/QUOTE

Hypogonadism, testicular atrophy, impaired spermatogenesis....in short issues with your balls. This one is really not rocket science if you add external testosterone then your body is going to stop producing the natural supply. The problem is your balls don't only produce testosterone, they produce other factors too some of which we may not measure well or understand the health implications of stopping production. One that is obvious is that your sperm can get all ****ed up because if your body doesn't produce test it can fool with the production of sperm also. Stopping steroids usually reverses many of these conditions(and people take other drugs to try to restart natural production). But if you keep cycling on and off there is no certainty that the body will always bounce back. Every time you shut it off it might not restart. Short term use probably less of an issue but long term it's all unknown.

gynaecomastia - affectionately known as bitch tits...in short you have too much estrogen which stimulates the growth of breast tissue. There are drugs that can help reduce some of the effects of this(i.e. the anti-estrogens etc). This one is probably the least damaging of the side affects and worst case you can get it removed with surgery.

psychiatric disturbance - otherwise known as roid rage, etc. Steriods can also trigger things like bipolar disorder etc. In short it can **** up your head ask Chris Benoit about this one. The magnitude depends of course on the individual but this is always a real risk.

Frankly I don't think even users are going to argue about any of above issues. They are issues but outside of the last one probably relatively modest to health outside of reproductive health.

But the bigger issue which they are still researching to understand why is the associated risk between steroids and what they call "Left ventricular hypertrophy". While ventricular hypertrophy itself is not a bad thing(it is when the heart gets bigger/stronger and pumps more...other wise known as athletes heart).

However in the case of "Left ventricular hypertrophy" the adding of heart muscle is detrimental to heart health. For whatever reason, most often due to things like hypertension or damage from heart attacks the left ventricular thickens increasing the risk of a host of heart problems. In some cases the LVH can be reversed, in others it cannot.

The exact pathology is unclear at this point but they have done studies on people who have and have not used anabolic steroids and those who have know and show a significantly larger incidence of 'Left ventricular hypertrophy'.

Honestly it's not terribly surprising what could be going on here. Heart hypertrophy is not in itself a bad thing, it helps the heart pump more blood. Both endurance athletes and strength athletes experience it. It is the strengthening of the heart muscle.

For whatever reason the data is showing that people who abuse anabolic steroids don't just have good heart muscle growth but also dysfunctional heart muscle growth. Now is this surprising? Given steroids help stimulate muscle growth it's not surprising they would also help grow the muscle in the heart too. The problem is that extra growth appears to go wrong and actually manifest as LVH. Frankly the fact the the growth goes wrong shouldn't be surprising either. If you're running at 2-3X normal body testosterone level who knows how your body is going to respond to levels that high.

This is the big issue, I don't believed they determined the exact reason this happens in steroids but they can show that LVH occurs significantly more even when you compare people that are exercising at the same levels(just some with steroids and some without).

Again everyone has know about the possible link between steroids and heart damage due to the deaths of NFLs from the 70s-80s with things like premature heart attacks and pro wrestlers too. The difference is they've been able to show now that there is 'bad' heart muscle growth in steroid users.

Steroids can be great at helping you build muscle the problem is they also appear to help the heart add muscle in a dysfunctional way. I suspect it has less to do with steroids and more to due with how much you are using. Use steroids to boost your T levels by a smallish amount there is probably minimal risk. But the more you take and the longer you do it the greater your risk for long term heart damage.

You may not see it today or even 10 years from now but it could show up as an early heart attack at a future point in life. There are pluses to using steroids but lets not pretend they are safe. They help build muscle, but not all muscle they build may be healthy(i.e. the LVH) in you heart. You may not see it today but that risk is always there. You have to decide if it's worth it to you.

Ok I'm out of this thread....

Yep I checked out. $400 a month. They shoot a pebble the size of a hampster turd in your ass. It's a slow release that lasts a month or 3. It was either my kid's college degree or my youth...it was a tough choice.

BTW the commercials about lowT are bullshit trying to sell a product that is actually the wrong way to treat the problem. The problem is the other ways to treat the problem are MUCH cheaper so there's no money in running the studies to prove the efficacy. It's funny the company that makes the synthetic T actually paid a generic company NOT to make it so they could charge more. The whole concept behind adding artificial T to solve this or any T problem is really wrong.

But this was my one exception to the one post rule...now I'm out for real.

In case you come back are there any links to body builder deaths? You only site NFL and Pro Wrestlers who also likely abuse a number of substances including Lyle Alzado who was actually using HGH from cadavors instead of the synthetic stuff used today.

D-Aspartic acid?

An honest question for those of you who've used on some kind of regular basis... how much of the muscle mass that steroids produce are you actually able to keep once you stop using?

If you continue to lift on a good program, can you keep most of it? I ask because i read an Esquire article a long time ago where the author cycled on it several times, rapidly got huge and freakishly strong, but once he stopped the mass melted away no matter what he did to try and keep it... is that pretty much how it goes or have some of you had different results?

That has been my experience, but I've heard others stay other wise.

It's good that you're out because you just did a copy and paste that was full of ****ing fail.

LVH can be many things. It could be "athletic heart syndrome" which is seen in a lot of athletes that lift heavy, or ask the heart to perform under very hard conditions. Or it could be cardiomyopathy. The only way to know this is to get the measurement done in a pretty consistent basis and/or do things to let the muscle atrophy a bit.

The point is, why do you ****ing care? Even if that is the case, whose body is it? Yours? No. So why do you care? No one can ever answer that question.

That makes me want to reconsider trying it, i would think it would be too easy to want to keep that pump and end up doing one too many cycles to the point of doing some permanent damage.

Pretty much that would happen yes. You have to remember you are altering your hormones, thus, altering the entire endocrine system. You synthesize protein more efficiently, you heal and recovery faster, everything gets "sped up". Yes, even some bad things if you aren't careful. But you can't go on cycle, come off, and retail anything really. That's why it's best to not come off. That's what it's meant to "blast and cruise". You go a term, say 10-12 weeks at high doses, then come down to low doses. You will retain everything on the low dose, but give your body a break from the higher doses of the androgens and anabolics.

Solid info, thanks man :thumb:

Some great info in this thread. Really surprised we have a handful of juicers here. So fed up with the bullshit that anyone who takes steroids is cheating. It won't make you elite anything and won't work nearly what it should if your training and diet isn't in check already. I have never jumped in the waters but have nothing against those who do. Most people who call it cheating for average joe's to use are just haters rooting for everyone else to fail so they themselves feel better.

I won't mess with any of it until after I have kids, if I even choose to do so. But after that, I could give two shits how my balls hang or if my boys can even swim.

There's a good sized study being done right now, should have results in a few years...

http://rt5.cceb.upenn.edu/portal/pag...PublicPageMain

Are Testosterone Supplements Worth the Risk?

Full article: http://www.nextavenue.org/article/20...nts-worth-risk

I could get M-Drol on Amazon right now...same stuff?

I believe they're cheating only if the rule book says they're cheating.

When McGuire and Sosa broke the home run record, they weren't cheating because it hadn't been deemed illegal by MLB.

Same goes for Bonds. I was at the Dodgers game when he was stuck on 714. I wanted to see history. I went the following night, only to see him hitless again. The very next night in San Diego, he tied Hank Aaron and broke the record thereafter.

I should have gone to San Diego.

That said, if some of the league is using performance enhancing drugs and some aren't, it doesn't make for a very level playing field. I'd prefer it to be either completely illegal or completely legal.

Wow, you are not in tune with society at all are you? I see commercial after commercial with fat balding goofy guy with hot petite woman. It's way more common than the other way. And it has been for awhile. I can't even believe for a second that men are under the same scrutiny that women are when it comes to weight and looks and the value attached. It's not even close. I'm not saying men aren't scrutinized, but not nearly as heavily as women. I can't tell you how many times I've come across a bunch of fat, sloppy dudes putting down a woman because she has a muffin top, or her tits aren't perfect enough.

Men like Sean Connery can win sexist man alive at age 70, but I can't even think of woman who won Sexiest woman alive that was over 40. Woman are scrutinized more and we know it. I can't go to a beach and tell you how many fat women are there vs hot women, but I can tell you that women are more conscience of their fat hanging out and are more apt not to go to a pool party, whereas guys have no issue with it typically because no one cares, as you say. They don't care because its more socially acceptable. Plain and simple.

Again, I know men have their own issues with body image, vanity etc...but to say its equal is ridiculous.

Our football has sucked for too long...people are testy these days.

Lots of stereotyping when it comes to this subject for sure.

Right? As if you just inject it and sit on the couch and the shit works...lol

I guess not. Maybe it's because I fast forward through the commercials or the fact that I know many super hot women that are married to guys that are in very good shape. I can't think of a single "fat man" that's married to a hot woman that I know of, have seen or know personally.

If you're using People magazine as your baseline, then yeah, images are skewed. But is that people in real life base their views upon?

FWIW, Connery was named sexiest man alive in 1989, when he was 59 years old.

I have to thoroughly disagree. I see plenty of beautiful women in their 30's, 40's and 50's that wear flattering one piece bathing suits and even bikinis without issue.

To contrary, I rarely, if ever, see fat guys walking around in Speedos. Sure, there are overweight men that don't mind going shirtless with board shorts but Speedos?

If you're a "normal" person for your age range, there shouldn't be an issue. If you're obese for your age range, I can understand the body issue but there's nothing wrong with a nice one-piece.

Personally, I think it's more mental than physical. Either your confident in yourself, or you're not.

I wonder the true % of average guys you see at clubs or at pool partys getting girls that are on some kind of steroid. I know from conversations with hot girls that almost all girls have dated at least one juice head(hot girls)...

Also I think they have potential in some diseases such ALS...

Also Pro-hormones are 50 times more dangerous than injectable test.

Deca can make your dick not work. Tren is a nightmare that i wouldnt touch. All orals are crap except anavar.

It doesn't shock me that there are this many people on CP that have done steroids.

I mean, just walking around my gym at peak time, you can pick out at least 7 guys that are on something.

Yea great logic Dane except you are dead wrong. Steroids were banned by MLB in 1991.

A quick Google search will confirm that for you.

$400 for a barely noticeable difference... what a rip off.

Well, this is a forum that is probably 99% guys, all sports fans so you have to imagine a good portion at some time in their life have been into working out and then a small % of those have done something with steroids.

I did exactly 1 cycle, loved it, but realized it wasn't going to be a long term plan for me. Just too much hassle.

I'm with you on this. I have always been a test-only guy, however the two orals I would recommend are anavar and proviron. Both are expensive and for a reason. My favorite cycle by far is test prop 100mg Eod, with 50mg proviron ed. Nice and easy, no sides at all and you pretty much keep all your gains since there is a low amount of aromitization.

Halotestin is awesome, and I hate orals for the most part. Not ORAL, before the comedian shows up. I love getting blown.

Every compound has different sides both good and bad for the user.

I hate winny, but some guys love it. It made me feel very spacey and made my BP go through the roof.

Var is ok.

I loved turinibol. Really, really good oral with no sides and massive strength gains.

I hated tren. Though I'm thinking of giving the enanthate version a run since the sides are supposed to be less.

I like dbol. Who doesn't?

Most of you guys I see run pretty low dose stuff. Myself and the guys I compete against well, it's a different story.

The other day a couple of buddies of mine were talking about their cycle and one of them said "I'm taking a gram of test a week, 600mg of tren a week, and 50mg of anavar a day." My other friend goes..."why are you training natural?"

It doesn't matter that MLB banned steroids. The Cardinals, Cubs, and Giants didn't have team rules against them, so it was perfectly legal.

That seems to be a theme in this thread. I don't think he has acknowledged some steroids are legal.

Ok, whatever dude...it's common knowledge that society puts different standards on women than men, but good for you that your bubble is safe from that. I applaud your world.

Medicinal use only.

If they needed to focus they could also smoke some weed.

Most definitely. While I think there is a push for men to be "Sexier" or more fit, I see tons of women that are hot, take care of themselves, etc with slob ugly dudes.

It has nothing to do with his wallet or the size of his junk either (that never made sense to me, what'd he do just walk up and pull it out, and she swooned?)

Generally a lot of women settle in the looks department because well, there aren't a lot of attractive guys out there to choose from. The ones that are, are generally either already taken, or like to "run around" a lot. So a woman who has experienced this leaves with a lot of bitterness in regards to being with good looking men.

So they settle. So the chubby ugly guy can still get a hot chic, if his game is pretty good, i.e. good sense of humor, makes her feel comfortable, she finds him interesting, etc.

So the guys don't have the same pressure from a looks standpoint that women do. Women are expected to be beautiful, and this is what their attention from men gets based around. That and that alone, at least in getting early attention. Where a woman is more open to giving a guy a chance, even if he doesn't quite meet her standards in the look department.

Lol insanity

I'm in better shape than my wife. It's annoying. She has no gym work ethic. If I want her to really buckle down, I have to make her go with me.

You have no idea what kind of cycles I see guys using. I mean, I don't even know how some guys can function.

Funny. Most of the most fit women I see now are in their 40's.

I never realized how many people use them until I used them.

It's really more than most people realize.

You seem very bitter. I wasn't trying to insult you but it's clear that you live in a different head space than I do.

And if MLB was concerned with upholding that ban, why did they fail to randomly and frequently test for steroids? Jose Canseco said that as many as 80% of the league was juicing, yet he was laughed at by outsiders.

And why did they look the other way when it was obvious to everyone that McGuire, Bonds and Sosa were clearly juicing, along with numerous other players?

The fact is that MLB didn't give a crap until the Feds became interested in 2005. THEN it became a big deal and in 2006, after their own investigations, did eating and bans begin.

Spinning, Pilates and yoga?

No I see them lifting and getting after it. Everytime I'm at the pool or somewhere out the hottest most in shape chics are the 40-something moms.

Really? Lifting? Wow. Out here, all the yummy mommies are into Pilates, Bikram, spinning, stairs and hiking at places like Griffith Park and Runyon Canyon.

My wife is a gym rat, but she refused to branch out for years, sticking to her Les Mills classes. I've finally got her doing some different stuff within the last month, and I'm hoping she starts to see results from it to build up her confidence in going out on her own.

I told her that her ass will never look like mine (I have a nice ass, no self homo) until she starts squatting and dead lifting some real weight, not the bullshit they do in Body Pump.

I also think it depends on the gym. At the typical 24 Hour Fitness, Bally's, LA Fitness and so on, I'd see maybe one or two guys that looked like they were juicing.

But places like World, Gold's and any number of private gyms, it's like 95%.

The thing is that there are more than the ones that "look like they are juicing."

Some people use them before they really need them (like I did) and they aren't the giant muscle dudes like you expect. I was sort of big, but I wasn't "hey that dude is juicing" big.

You know, I'm not picking on you but this statement bothers me.

If you think that the average 35-50 year old fat guy that's earning $50-$60k per year can walk into any bar, night club, beach or swimming pool and pull the hottest woman in the place with ease, your perceptions are completely warped.

If that were the case, the divorce rate would skyrocket 35% overnight because average Joes would be banging all the young hotties.

That is clearly not the case.

If you're talking about millionaires and billionaires, you of all people should know that the rules are different, because those guys won and hence, reap the riches of their success.

You're talking about the extremes again. There's a middle ground between Joe Goatee making $50k and Donald Trump.

I could go out and meet plenty of hot 22 year olds who would be willing to date an average looking 35 year old guy who isn't a billionaire but makes good money. It's harder to find a 22 year old beefcake who will date an average looking older woman. (Bang, maybe...but not enter into an exclusive, serious relationship.)

And Carlota wasn't?

I wasn't referring to "average looking", I'm taking about overweight, fat guys aged 35-50 pulling all the hot chicks in the joint every time he goes out. That is ridiculous.

Sean Connery as the Sexiest Man Alive at age 59? Duh. He was THE James Bond. Henry Jones, Sr. Multimillionaire.

Average fat, middle income 59 year? Yeah, no.

its shorter to just say "chiefsplanet"

Exactly.

LMAO

He can do it a whole lot easier (or at least it happens wayyyy more often regardless of ease)than some chubby fat chick walking into a bar and pulling some svelt hot dude. Im also not talking about the hottest chick, Im saying society accepts fat guys more than they accept fat chicks. You see it on TV a lot, and I hear it in the conversations of the men around me, including on this very board. "How dare that chick be fat", "OMG she's 150lbs!!! What a cow!!!" yet, a lot of the time, the dude is just as many LBS overweight, belly hanging but thats more acceptable. Also, Sean Connery was 70 when he won that, and no woman has won it over the age of 40 (that I can think of). And while, you call that extreme, it is one of the reasons we believe it to be ok for guys to be less than perfect looks wise, weight wise, then women. Media media media teaches us froma very young age, that looks on a woman are important, while they teach men other things are important. Not saying men dont have pressures because of what society expects from them, but women are expected to be beautiful, and thin, and if they arent, theyre worthless cows.

There's also the thinking that men are more visual and women are more about emotions, personality and bringing home the bacon capabilities. You know the joke, if the girl is hot and serving french fries at McDonalds, the dude doesn't care, he still wants to date her. But the other way around, the girl wouldn't give the guy the time of day cuz she want a man who can provide?

Although, I think women are becoming more and more demanding of the guy being in shape like you said above...

Yeah, it's definitely not all about looks for women. If I walked around shirtless, I don't think I would be able to score many chicks. If I walked around with a crazy high reputation credit card flashed about, I would get a lot more.

I bet you could score some dudes if you walked around shirtless, though.

Yeah bro, because you're in a more climate friendly place. I'd imagine that'd be the case. Here, you better lift because come winter time you're going to be inside a gym. I think that's the difference.

Yummy mommies is an awesome phrase tho.

TheGuardian: I still can't access your blog today.

You need to have her start a fitness routine. Every day, have her log her exercises, eating habits, etc. and post it to CP along with several topless photographs of herself standing in front of the mirror. I think you will find that she gets motivated to really look good.