.

No, there are two main plots that are not a part of the story. For obvious reasons I'll not spoil them here.

I don't know of a single book reader that think Snow is dead. But, we have no clue for sure until GRR gets off his ass and finishes the next book.

Regarding Snow...

Olly deserved to have his parents killed.

Well that was something.

I enjoyed it all pretty much except for the Snow part.

Obviously the Snow part is the haymaker, but all the lines were pretty massive.

Down goes Stannis. But what about hot redhead and Davos? Why the hell would hot redhead go back to the wall, except ofcourse to revive Snow ala that dude that lit his sword on fire and the Hound hacked up.

Sansa is taking a hell of a leap of faith. And WTF got into Reek and why now?

The Lannisters are having a go of it. Marcella is surely dead. Will it start a war? Was the prince in on it? And what will happen to Cersi after her nude stroll. I expected the crowd to kill her. As scared as she had been of it. And the mountain is ****ed the **** up. Awesome.

Did Arya die? That's kind of how I took it. Anyway. She's in deep shit if she is still breathing.

Interesting they didn't bring Bran into this season at all. WTF?

What about Dany? Were the Dothraki rallying around her or abucting her fixing to rape the **** out of her like they do?

I think Melisandre escaped Stannis. He burned Shireen on her suggestion and he lost more than half his army and transportation as well as his wife hanging herself.

His march to Winterfell was pretty much a suicide.

So we should call our shots.

Snow: dead

Rest of the Nights watch: part of a 700 foot speed bump for white walkers.

Sam, Gilly and little Sam: figure out how to work with Bran to bring down the white walkers.

Bran: whatever the **** is happening with him brings down the white walkers.

Sansa: Reek plays the old I'm going to help you escape but it is really torture before I mame you.

Dany: abducted by Dothraki and raped a lot because that's what Mongols Dothraki do. Eventually she tries to escape and dies.

Jorah and Daario: Greyscale eats Jorah. Daario gets crushed by the Dothraki.

Cersi: the mountain eats her or something crazy.

Thommen: Goes to war with Dorne because they killed his sister. Dies.

Jamie: Same

Bronn: bangs that hot chick. Fights for Dorne.

Tyrian: somehow becomes the leader of Mereen. Lives happily ever after.

Dragons: get loose and are a general pain in the ass.

Martels: get loose become part of the Dorne war. Die.

Baelish: after everyone is done ****ing each other, gets the iron throne.

There you have it folks. It'll be interesting to see how wrong I am.

EDIT:
Hodor: Hodor

Probably out after that trash.

:rolleyes:

Yeah I'm with you guys at this point. Smart money is on the White Walkers destroying everything. I'm just going to start hoping for the death of any character I like. Might as well get out in front of it.

This is feeling more like LOST and less like Lord of the Rings.

I'd be surprised if the payoff is satisfying at all.

The problem this time around is that they haven't really set up anyone else to step in as the quasi good guy. I realize this isn't really about good vs. evil, but we still find ourselves rooting for those that seem to lean to the good side. They've always had someone to step in next when they kill off the really interesting characters. Boltons? Nope. Dorn? No way. The wall? Not really, but maybe Davos I guess. Tyrion is still great, but I'm struggling to find characters I'm really invested in with Dorn, Myreen and The Wall not bearing much fruit at this point. I'm sure they have a plan, and I'll look forward to next season as usual.

Davos falls off the top of the Wall.
Tyrion is eaten by a dragon.

Any other characters you like?

I don't think this show is about the payoff, whatever that might be at this point. There's no secret ending where someone jumps from behind a curtain to wrap things up nice and neat. It's simply story telling that revolved around a power struggle in a fantasy land. It really could be a story with no end.

Bullshit. I want someone on that iron throne at the end. I don't care if it's Tyrion resurrected as a white walker midget.

I DEMAND CLOSURE

Davos could actually die exactly that way, committing suicide after his second child (it seemed he considered Shireen as much) dies.

For Tyrion, it would be a hell of a way to go.

Brutal episode.

Incest, incest rape, plain ol rape, child exploitation, child abuse, child sacrifice, child murder, and that atonement walk was still the most unsettling scene in the show for me. Even the real life logistics of the scene, which had to include 100's if not 1000s of people on set, is amazing to think about. Just brutal. In keeping true with the show though, they manage to make you feel for a deplorable character by making you hate another group even more. Great stuff all the way around last night.

What's next GoT? Ghost turned out by the Thenns now that Snow is dead?

Game of Thrones (spoiler-free zone)
 

Melisandre always says kings blood shows her things. Maybe she saw something with Snow when they burned Shireen and went back realizing if she helps him that is the true person to be backing.

Shame. Ding, ding, ding.

Highly suspect that these are the words destined to be carved into your tombstone one day.



Anyway, yeah, me and the Mrs. were none too pleased to see Jon bleeding out on the ground. As soon as they called for him, I felt sure it was a death sentence trap.

I really do hope that others are right in Melisandre bringing him back. Have to figure time is a factor on her ability to bring him back, heck, I dunno.

No idea what happens with Arya now. I found her travels lately to be boring, but it was satisfying to watch her kill that SOB.

Damn shame Drogon couldn't get his ass up to get Danys the **** outta the middle of nowhere. I don't remember exactly why the Dothraki would turn against her. Guess without daddy badass, they lost respect. I still like her more than most, so I hate the thought of her getting raped and brutalized.. though her nudity is always a plus.

Myrcella dying (assume she will) is the only time a Lannister falls that doesn't make me smile. At least it will further crush Cersei.

I like what reek did and is doing for Sansa, but no matter what, he can not atone for his crimes.

BRING BACK JON SNOW !!!!

Right. I agree

The books are somewhat ahead of the show in King's Landing. There are some events post-Cercei's walk that occur. Note, importantly, that in the books Varys is NOT with Tyrion. Instead he is operating from the shadows in King's Landing, having gone missing immediately after Tywin's death.

Pretty much how I feel. It is hard to stay invested when all the people you like die.

I can't promise a good and happy outcome. I serious cannot. But I will say this -- it's almost certainly NOT as bleak as it currently appears.

Yep. It's a sign of bad writing. Anyone can make up mysterious storylines filled with clues and intrigue. But if you have no idea where it's going things fall apart quickly.

That's what happened to Lost around season 4 and it was never able to recover.

Just so you know the story is already written. GRRM actually has the entire series written out and the shows writers already know all of it. That was part of the agreement when they did the show. They already know how everything turns out, it is just a matter of how to get there that they may make a few changes.

I supposed they could make a change to how everything turns out as well but I don't think that is their plan.

edit: And when I say he has it written out it is more of an outline than having it all written out.

When Myrcella was poisoned, this is the line I was thinking of -- "We don't hurt little girls in Dorne..."


What's the rest of that sentence? "Unless they are at least 100 feet offshore"? "Until they turn of legal age, and then, BOOM!"?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xt8lJ3RohL0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I am curious if they are working on their own still. You notice he wasn't sitting there in his cart afterwards.

Good question. I thought that "nod" between the Prince and whatshername was the signal, but perhaps it was more a "play nice" nod.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btDlu-zraWA



P.S. Isn't the Prince of Dorne on that same ship? In killing Myrcella, they pretty much sentenced him to death also if so. Seems politically stupid, and therefore more likely to indicate that you are right -- these are the idiotic Sand Snakes doing what they do).

I don't know, the look on her face pretty much reflected a soul crushing blow. Like she was questioning everything she believed in.

I'd have to think if she went back to back Jon Snow she would have immediately started her whole "I saw in the flames" BS as soon as she arrived at Castle Black.

Well, maybe she also saw Davos stabbing her to death if she showed a lack of sympathy for Shireen? :D

The Red Viper and his brother Doran would not kill Myrcella, I think he was being truthful to Cersei there. So that had to have been Ellaria and possibly the Sand Snakes. Which is dumb because the Red Viper caused his own death, and he would never have wanted for them to try to "avenge" him by killing an innocent girl.

I didn't even think of that. Though Jamie doesn't know that she was poisoned immediately afterwards so who knows. I would say Bronn would figure it out though after his run in with the hot sand snake.

Maybe they are willing to sacrifice him since he's headed to King's Landing now. :shrug:

Well then, here's to hoping Davos finds out it was her idea to burn Shireen!! :thumb:

First, just to correct myself -- the guy in the wheelchair (Doran Martell, the brother of Oberyn) is, technically, the "Prince of Dorne". Not sure why he is a prince, but whatever. His son is the heir, whatever he is called.

He is a political schemer. Think Tyrion-type. He isn't going to cast away his son so stupidly. Definitely a sand snake type of thing.

Perfect quote for Doran Martell. This is from the books (duh)

"I am not blind, nor deaf. I know you all believe me weak, frightened, feeble. Your father knew me better. Oberyn was ever the viper. Deadly, dangerous, unpredictable. No man dared tread on him. I was the grass. Pleasant, complaisant, sweet-smelling, swaying with every breeze. Who fears to walk upon the grass? But it is the grass that hides the viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes.[21] ”

- Doran to the Sand Snakes

With Jon dead and Sam having relocated, I'd now be okay with the White Walkers overrunning the wall and taking Winterfell. I'll feel a bit of regret when the wildlings die, but everybody else I will be rooting for the White Walkers to win. In fact the can go ahead and take all of Westeros.

I am pretty much done with this show. As has been mentioned, all my favorite characters are dead, or damaged (Arya being blinded.) It was a hell of a risk to end the season this way. Despite the cliffhanger nature of the season finale, I am not finding myself saying "We have to wait for next year to find out?" No, I'm just pissed off.

You'll all be back

Here's the deal: all the viewers are now going to get exposed to the huge amounts of theories and ideas and lore from the books that supports those theories and ideas about where things are going.

Book readers have been keeping their mouths shut, but now with the TV show caught up, book readers are going to be able to yammer on about all the possibilities.

Anyway, very very few book readers actually think Jon Snow is dead. Also with regards to Arya:

Regarding Jon Snow, wouldn't they burn his body fairly quickly? It seems ol girl would have to act swiftly to change anything, unless maybe she can make something happen from his harvested blood.

Best part about this: the White Walkers are already dead!

Yeah probably. I'm just not as excited for this show as I once was.

That's probably about right. That's how I felt after reading the last two books as well. The show, and its differences, gave me some hope. But in the end, we're at the same basic spot in both the show and the books now, with the show, at least, arriving there much quicker and less painfully.

Is there any reason to not merge this thread with the other now?

The server getting gang raped with blades dipped in poison while on fire.

The dragons will protect the server from all that. We just have to wait for them to show up.

They said something in the first or second season, while traveling in the desert before eventually arriving at Quarth, that they see her as competition. Once the Khal falls off his horse, it's an all out war for supremacy of the khalasar.

There are also several khalasars, each with their own Khal. This could be a seperate group. The Dothraki are essentially pirates of the land of Essos. They will enslave or kill anyone not in their community, as we saw with the lands they plundered in the first season.

They could have grabbed her for any numerous reasons.

What was the significance of her dropping the ring as the riders approached?

I think things are looking up for Dany. My prediction is that the Dothraki saw her fly in on a dragon which is just about the only way she could have won back their respect with Drogo gone. She knows the people, speaks the language, and will lead them back to join with her kingdom and put down the Harpies right as it looks like Tyrion has lost control.

Two possibilities: 1. Leave behind evidence for the good guys who are tracking her. 2. Doesn't want those Dothraki studs to think she is still married.

That was her engagement ring where she'd remarried the one dude in Myreen? She doesn't want the Dothraki to know she remarried after Khal Drogo.

At least I think that was the significance.

She dropped her ring because you know her "saviors" are going to come into the Dorthraki sea, and look around for about 15 minutes, and then lo' and behold find that ring sitting in the grass and instantly know where she is.

This

It could be because she is the widow of the leader of the Dothraki. I don't recall them explaining this very well in the show but a widow of a Dothraki leader is expected to go to some place where all the widows of a Dothraki leader go. They basically have to grow old and die never being anything except the widow of a previous leader. They aren't allowed to remarry or anything. In the books it is mentioned a few times that she can never be in the presence of the Dothraki again because they will try to force her to go to that place.

I don't know if that ring was from Kal Drogo or someone else. If it was from Kal Drogo she might have been dropping it so they wouldn't know who she was.

I am pretty sure the Sand Snakes are acting alone with poisoning Myrcella. I am also thinking that the one that likes Bronne gave him the anecdote. Though I have no real reason to think that in the grand scheme of the story beyond just pure speculation.

With regards to Jon, it makes perfect sense for Melisandra to save him. It accomplishes two things. The first is that it forces the viewer to actually start to like (or at least tolerate) Melisandra even though this whole time we have been conditioned to hate her.

Secondly, it would force Jon to owe her a debt of gratitude which will force him to be much more willing to listen to her and make her a part of his story in some way.

Can someone explain to me, using only the show info...

Why did the Night's Watch kill Jon?

The sole purpose of the Nights Watch, as they know it, was to defend the realm from the Wildlings. Jon then let all the Wildlings through the gate making him a traitor.

Pissed off because of his continued love of the wildlings, best I can tell.

He said it to Sam. He's the only Lord Commander in history to sacrifice the lives of men of the Nights Watch to save the lives of wildlings.

That stunt at hard home did it. There were some other things, I'm sure that Irish mother****er is still pissed off at him for losing the election and some dudes just don't like Sam. And some guys think he is a pretentious **** but it is mostly the hardhome thing.

He was just proven right about bringing all the wildlings south with the Night King's now huge army. There were other members of the Night's Watch there to corroborate that he was, in fact, correct about the White Walkers, and therefore the need for as many wildlings as possible to be brought through the wall.

Hardhome is exactly why they shouldn't kill him. The Night's Watch only has reason to hate the wildlings if there isn't a bigger enemy out there.

Rational decision making isn't necessarily these mother****ers strong suit.

Yes, there are several major parts of the books that were not even in the TV series yet. Including a "Red Wedding" type shocker that will be spoiled. The timeline in the books has passed in the TV series but there is no reason they can't being it up next season.

There is also more about the ironborn. There are at least a 1000 pages on those two things that are not in the series. Thats almost a whole book by itself.

But, they may never make it to the TV, so its really up to you non
-book readers.

Some of the Watch do not seem to be able to get beyond their Wildling contempt to see the big picture.

I definitely saw an individual attempt being made on Jon, but I don't really get the group think behind assassinating him. Why open the gate and let the Wildlings through at all, if they are just going to pull this shit?

Guess it just shows that human beings suck. Can't even stand side by side against a common enemy and far greater danger.

The stupid thing is they got an army on the other, unprotected, side of the wall. They just killed the only person that has favor with that army. Dumb.

The characters in the books actually have a reasonable motivation for killing Jon.

I really couldn't say. As a non-book reader of GoT, I can see Alliser wanting to be top dog. I can understand the kid seeking only revenge on the Wildlings for his village being butchered by Wildings.. all the while not seeing the big picture of humans vs WW/undead.

That's about all I can appreciate about killing Jon.. from a non-book reader POV. :shrug:

The Watch and their actions, while illogical, are a microcosm of what's going on in all of Westeros. People are concerned with their political bullshit when the real threat that could wipe them all out is marching on their asses.

I mean, all of Westeros is acting illogically and idiotically (and the books do a much better job of showing this) in that they are aware of reports from beyond the Wall that "Winter is Coming," but they aren't concerned with that. They're just worried about their own myopic political gains.

Very well said.

This show was so great when it was character driven and concentrated on human politics, deceit, and general interaction...

Now it's turing into LOTR. ugh

They ran out of material from GRRM and are now winging it, but they aren't capable of thinking through the depth that he has that made the show interesting in the first place.

I seriously am worried for the next two seasons and fear that this is going to come to a horribly unsatisfying conclusion.

Is the source material part of the problem though? I have seen people here and in various articles saying the most recent book or two have been less than stellar and really just dragged on.

I too am a bit worried for the next season. This season was definitely below the first four seasons in dialogue and intrigue. I am just hoping if the new book comes out before next season that it will be a big infusion of material to work with.

Yes. The source material is THE problem, imo. I feel like a broken record, but GRRM is, ultimately, an author who writes "books with imaginary maps." Fantasy authors are so freaking obsessed with world/culture creation and all the cool stuff they think up that they forget to write a story. They'd rather spin off some excuse of a side plot that will allows them to get some crap like the Sand Snakes (and if you've read the book, it's even worse with the number of stupid, meaningless spinoffs he creates) because they're "cool."

When the story was character driven, it was interesting. It's become culture/world driven now, imo. It's just about him fleshing out the world in tedious detail. Robert Jordan did the same crap with the Wheel of Time.

I actually think the show writers have done an excellent job of winnowing down some of the freaking plotlines and condensing/combining others so that it makes a tighter, more coherent story.

And if they really killed off Jon Snow, fan and book backlash will grow especially if the next book GRR resurrects him.

rep

The fire God lady resurrects Jon in the fire and we find out his mother was a Targaryen.

I feel like you didn't really understand what you read?

In the books:

A) The only person that has ever seen a White Walker is Sam. Even the wildlings admit to never having seen one. It's similar to your crazy cousin claiming to have killed Bigfoot.

B) Jon not only admits their sworn enemy to protect against Bigfoot, he then decides to abandon the wall to march the Night's Watch against Winterfell.

A mutiny was far from an illogical action.

It's sad, because the best explanation for what they did in the show is "they're kind of dumb and didn't really think it through."

In the books, Jon's death is completely his own fault. He continually puts himself in worse and worse positions for the benefit of everyone else. All of his actions are set up to benefit everyone in the long run, at the expense of his own current position. He sends away Sam, Gilly, and Aemon to Oldtown. He sends Tormund and his other wildling supporters away to Hardhome. He decides to risk marching against a foe who threatens to destroy the Watch rather than "take no part".

In the end, it all got him killed.