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-   -   Cardinals ****The Official 2019 STL Cardinals Thread**** (https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=320239)

BigRedChief 10-16-2019 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dls6501 (Post 14531164)
I am sure many of you will be ready to take away my fan card after the following sentence....

But I dont know why there has been zero talk about how pathetic Yadier Molina was with the bat this postseason. He was constantly coming up in big spots with men on base and failing. One sac fly is literally all I can remember from his postseason. And that's not enough when others are struggling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod (Post 14531167)
He's still a decent defensive catcher, but a pure liability if he's at the plate and not behind it. He needs to hang up his spurs and move on to coaching.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Roundup (Post 14531214)
He tied the game and won the game against the Braves in game 4.
Most of our hitters sucked this postseason.

without him, we don’t win the NLDS. We can’t compare the 38 year old Yadi with 17K innings on those knees to the younger version that was the greatest defensive catcher of his generation.

He’s still at least average in his catching skills but still calls a great game. Although I do hope this is his last year. I’d hate to see a Yadi that has seriously deteriorated skills just hanging on to what once was greatness.

dls6501 10-16-2019 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 14531244)
Wasn't Yadi one of the few Cards that actually got some hits in the post-season?

Not saying he was great at bat, but let's be real, Yadi's importance to the team is behind the plate, not at bat. And his leadership.

If you consider getting 5 hits in 9 games "actually getting some hits" then I guess he was. For me, it was the fact that it seemed like he was always up with men on base and he didnt produce.

He slashed .152/.216/.242 in the playoffs this year. Thats Baderesque.

Frazod 10-16-2019 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dls6501 (Post 14531306)
If you consider getting 5 hits in 9 games "actually getting some hits" then I guess he was. For me, it was the fact that it seemed like he was always up with men on base and he didnt produce.

He slashed .152/.216/.242 in the playoffs this year. Thats Baderesque.

Kind of reminded me of McGwire's last playoff series against the Diamondbacks. Seemed like every time he came up to bat there were runners on base and two outs. Strike one, strike two, strike three, inning over. Everybody on earth knew he was a guaranteed instant out, except for Tony. :shake:

VAChief 10-17-2019 04:24 AM

He wasn’t the only one killing us, but he certainly deserves his own criticism.

Yadi batting 5th tells you all you need to know about the state of our position player roster. Batting 8th is where he fits the rest of what is left of his career. He really doesn’t fit there well either, but if you have the other pieces and he continues to hold down opposing running games it is justified.

BigRedChief 10-17-2019 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VAChief (Post 14531664)
He wasn’t the only one killing us, but he certainly deserves his own criticism.

Yadi batting 5th tells you all you need to know about the state of our position player roster. Batting 8th is where he fits the rest of what is left of his career. He really doesn’t fit there well either, but if you have the other pieces and he continues to hold down opposing running games it is justified.

Yadi throws out Acuna in the first inning seems to have changed their whole series game plan about running. He should have not been batting 5th but as you said, thats more of a statement of our other players than his current offensive skills. Yadi was not one our main issues this year.

Our problem is, as the guest on Bernies podcast said yesterday,....... we need more good dudes...

I don't understand why AL teams aren't interested in Jose Martinez. The dude can obviously hit.

Carlos still has top shelf stuff, maybe we get a team that thinks they can "fix" Carlos focus and make a deal for more offensive production?

Just trade Fowler for whatever we can get, pay the majority of the remaining contract. If its only a bag of baseballs thats fine, we need to just move on. If Mo is your guy, Dewitt needs to just eat the rest of the contract.

VAChief 10-17-2019 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 14531680)
Yadi throws out Acuna in the first inning seems to have changed their whole series game plan about running. He should have not been batting 5th but as you said, thats more of a statement of our other players than his current offensive skills. Yadi was not one our main issues this year.

Our problem is, as the guest on Bernies podcast said yesterday,....... we need more good dudes...

I don't understand why AL teams aren't interested in Jose Martinez. The dude can obviously hit.

Carlos still has top shelf stuff, maybe we get a team that thinks they can "fix" Carlos focus and make a deal for more offensive production?

Just trade Fowler for whatever we can get, pay the majority of the remaining contract. If its only a bag of baseballs thats fine, we need to just move on. If Mo is your guy, Dewitt needs to just eat the rest of the contract.

Extending Carp is worse than Fowler. Mo should be fired for that one alone. PGM thinks fire Mo first, but also thinks Shildt is a turd, but ironically Shildt just provided Mo more job security by managing a 4 place team of position players to the NLCS.

VAChief 10-17-2019 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 14531680)
Yadi throws out Acuna in the first inning seems to have changed their whole series game plan about running. He should have not been batting 5th but as you said, thats more of a statement of our other players than his current offensive skills. Yadi was not one our main issues this year.

Our problem is, as the guest on Bernies podcast said yesterday,....... we need more good dudes...

I don't understand why AL teams aren't interested in Jose Martinez. The dude can obviously hit.

Carlos still has top shelf stuff, maybe we get a team that thinks they can "fix" Carlos focus and make a deal for more offensive production?

Just trade Fowler for whatever we can get, pay the majority of the remaining contract. If its only a bag of baseballs thats fine, we need to just move on. If Mo is your guy, Dewitt needs to just eat the rest of the contract.

Yadi will never admit it, but he is at the point in his career where if they put him on a schedule where he played 90-100 games he might actually be more productive. The MLB schedule is grueling for an aging body let alone one that plays catcher.

'Hamas' Jenkins 10-17-2019 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VAChief (Post 14531721)
Yadi will never admit it, but he is at the point in his career where if they put him on a schedule where he played 90-100 games he might actually be more productive. The MLB schedule is grueling for an aging body let alone one that plays catcher.

Oh, I think that's definitely true. He hit much better the first several weeks back from his thumb injury, and it's likely because he was finally rested. I'm sure the grind of the last several weeks of the season wore him down again. The announcers spoke repeatedly about both his hands bothering him.

VAChief 10-17-2019 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 14531820)
Oh, I think that's definitely true. He hit much better the first several weeks back from his thumb injury, and it's likely because he was finally rested. I'm sure the grind of the last several weeks of the season wore him down again. The announcers spoke repeatedly about both his hands bothering him.

I don't think people can fully appreciate the pounding catchers take to their hand from just catching the damn ball (especially as velocity rates climb). I remember in Junior College I had a fellow pitcher who threw low to mid 90's and sometimes we would catch each other in the bullpen. He also threw a heavy ball and occasionally that sink would hit the mitt and just numb the meaty part of my thumb. I can't imagine doing that for 9 innings and then trying to hit.

O.city 10-17-2019 10:18 AM

So, next year is gonna be the same squad right? There's not much they can change iirc.

VAChief 10-17-2019 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 14532042)
So, next year is gonna be the same squad right? There's not much they can change iirc.

Depends, there are quite a few options out there in free agency. Ten years ago they could have been viewed as possible landing spots, but I'm not sure that is true anymore. Mo has been quite adept at spending money for past performance on a host of players. He can't seem to within reason accurately evaluate likely depreciating talent on other teams and even our own.

I have no hope that will change as long as he is running things.

That said, theoretically there are several starting pitching options that could make sense. They won't be able to get Cole or Strasburg, and probably not Wheeler. However I wouldn't mind them kicking the tires on Bumgardner or Hamels as long as it is reasonable.

Rendon would make a lot of sense, but they still owe Carpenter three years. Donaldson was a clear miss last year and will probably cash in on his big year with the Braves.

If they had signed Donaldson instead of Goldy and NOT extended Carpenter there would be lots of options this year.

The overstocked outfield are not names that are going to bring great value in return (maybe Carlson, which would be asinine).

So, no probably not going to change much from outside.

jd1020 10-17-2019 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 14531680)
I don't understand why AL teams aren't interested in Jose Martinez. The dude can obviously hit.

He can hit but he's a DH so when you put him in that group his hitting doesn't look all that great.

If you were going to trade him you would have done it last season, but I don't even remember if the Cardinals seriously considered it. His OPS+ this season was 97. The DH average OPS+ hovers around 110.

Frazod 10-17-2019 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 14532042)
So, next year is gonna be the same squad right? There's not much they can change iirc.

Sadly, yes. While the division win and playoff series win were fun, they put off rebuilding by a year.

Pasta Little Brioni 10-17-2019 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod (Post 14532420)
Sadly, yes. While the division win and playoff series win were fun, they put off rebuilding by a year.

Pretty much. Not shocking at all that an inconsistent,veteran laden team of underperformers (coaching) took advantage of a weak division, played well in one series and shit the bed the next. But, hey those LCS participation shirts...

VAChief 10-17-2019 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasta Giant Meatball (Post 14532743)
Pretty much. Not shocking at all that an inconsistent,veteran laden team of underperformers (coaching) took advantage of a weak division, played well in one series and shit the bed the next. But, hey those LCS participation shirts...

Veteran under-performers and you blame coaching?:doh!:

BigRedChief 10-19-2019 09:21 AM

Some 2020 payroll highlights:
  • $146 million committed.
  • But, that doesn't include 14 players who are on the roster that will need to be paid too. Flaherty, Hudson, Hicks etc.
  • Paying Carpenter $18.5 million. Also the same in 2021.
  • Dexter Fowler $16.5 million
  • Brett Cecil $7.5 million
  • Goldy $26 million yearly for the next 5 years.
  • We are also paying Leake $4 million
  • If Ozuna takes the QO, est $17.5 million
Thanks to Mo for over paying most of these players. Guess-estimated $160 - $170 million payroll without changing anything. 5th highest in baseball.

So what can we do? Trade Fowler and Carpenter for "A" level lottery prospects. Pay 1/2 their salary to the other team. We can probably get more out of that $16 million we save from some other player. But, the main reason is to just move on from aging under performing players. You just need one team to think they can fix them. Thinking Angels for Fowler. Carp to some low level AL team with cash issues.

Otherwise, thanks to Mo making players feel comfortable, we don't have any money. We cant expect to have a top 5 payroll. It's unrealistic to think Dewitt is going to go that high.

George Liquor 10-19-2019 10:55 AM

I still can't believe that Carpenter extension

'Hamas' Jenkins 10-19-2019 11:15 AM

Next year needs to be a farewell tour. Sign Waino to 1/10 and have him go out with Yadi.

Give all the AAAA OF enough rope to hang themselves, then see if you have any wheat.

Give Helsley and Gomber a shot in the rotation. Eat the Fowler deal. If Miller shows life, trade him to a team needing lefty help immediately.

Edman is going to have a much worse year next year. Prepare yourself for it, because his batted ball luck won't hold. Carpenter stays on the bench. Period.

Don't rush Csrlson. Do all that and next year will be a success.

Miles 10-19-2019 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDj23 (Post 14539389)
I still can't believe that Carpenter extension

That $2M buyout to decline his option sure would look nice.

ChiefsCountry 10-21-2019 10:05 AM

Interesting proposal coming about the minor league systems
https://www.baseballamerica.com/stor...-league-teams/

VAChief 10-21-2019 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 14539406)
Next year needs to be a farewell tour. Sign Waino to 1/10 and have him go out with Yadi.

Give all the AAAA OF enough rope to hang themselves, then see if you have any wheat.

Give Helsley and Gomber a shot in the rotation. Eat the Fowler deal. If Miller shows life, trade him to a team needing lefty help immediately.

Edman is going to have a much worse year next year. Prepare yourself for it, because his batted ball luck won't hold. Carpenter stays on the bench. Period.

Don't rush Csrlson. Do all that and next year will be a success.

Sounds like you are talking somewhat of a rebuild. I can't say I disagree. If they were to cut ties with Fowler, I would make a qualifying offer to Ozuna (he probably won't accept, but even if he does it is for one year, which buys you some time on Carlson). That leaves Bader, ONeill, Arozarena and Lane to fight it out for the other outfield spots. I would also try to find an AL fit for Martinez. He limits our bench options too much, especially if they continue to run Molina out there day and and day out.

If you keep Carp benched who plays third everyday? Do you even try to upgrade over there?

Pasta Little Brioni 10-21-2019 02:01 PM

You guys know damn well what SHOULD be done.

BigRedChief 10-21-2019 02:03 PM

Carlos Martinez has surgery on his pitching shoulder. Mo says it was minor surgery and will be ready for spring training. Soooo expect him back at mid season and again unable to throw more than 50 pitches at a time.

jd1020 10-21-2019 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 14543190)
Carlos Martinez has surgery on his pitching shoulder. Mo says it was minor surgery and will be ready for spring training. Soooo expect him back at mid season and again unable to throw more than 50 pitches at a time.

Rumor has it the surgery went exceedingly well. He's throwing the ball with authority with increased command and velocity and he's set to sign a multi-year extension.

BigRedChief 10-21-2019 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jd1020 (Post 14543224)
Rumor has it the surgery went exceedingly well. He's throwing the ball with authority with increased command and velocity and he's set to sign a multi-year extension.

ROFL damn good onion take. Enough truth with parody. Yet, depressing at the same time.

'Hamas' Jenkins 10-21-2019 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VAChief (Post 14542900)
Sounds like you are talking somewhat of a rebuild. I can't say I disagree. If they were to cut ties with Fowler, I would make a qualifying offer to Ozuna (he probably won't accept, but even if he does it is for one year, which buys you some time on Carlson). That leaves Bader, ONeill, Arozarena and Lane to fight it out for the other outfield spots. I would also try to find an AL fit for Martinez. He limits our bench options too much, especially if they continue to run Molina out there day and and day out.

If you keep Carp benched who plays third everyday? Do you even try to upgrade over there?

3B is a wasteland in FA past Rendon. The roster is too old and the farm too barren to try and thread the needle with him. They should have traded for and re-signed Donaldson when they had a chance last year. That extra 6 WAR and near 40 homers may have come in handy when needing to balance out the lineup.

Edman might be the best internal option, but he's more of a super utility guy.

DJ's left nut 10-21-2019 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 14543362)
3B is a wasteland in FA past Rendon. The roster is too old and the farm too barren to try and thread the needle with him. They should have traded for and re-signed Donaldson when they had a chance last year. That extra 6 WAR and near 40 homers may have come in handy when needing to balance out the lineup.

Edman might be the best internal option, but he's more of a super utility guy.

Can DeJong be a 3 win 3b and Edman a 2.5-3 win SS?

Seems like a tough ask for both of them, but not impossible. I really hate moving a guy down the defensive spectrum when he established that he can play credible SS, though. Paul has turned himself into a pretty damn valuable player there on defense alone.

Eh, maybe I don't dick with him. For as much heat as he took this season, he showed additional development in his approach. His BB has reached tolerable levels and his K rate declined as well. If he can sneak that BB rate to say 10% and get that K rate down just a tick more to say 21%, then normalize his BABIP to match some pretty good hard hit rates, he can have a hell of a nice offensive season. Sure would like to see him even out a bit but there's value in a guy who's white hot at times if the rest of the lineup isn't dependent on him.

So much of that offense comes down to the fact that Goldschmidt and Ozuna were acquired to be steady, consistent 3-4 hitters and pretty much never were. Both guys got intermittently hot but only for short periods and took WAY too many noncompetitive ABs in between. And of course Carpenter.

If your key guys are your key guys, then a guy like DeJong can be perfect in that he can carry the team for a few weeks. A guy like Bader can be hidden because his defense is just so damn good. But when you've got $70+ million or so plowed into Goldschmidt, Ozuna, Carpenter and Molina, let alone the additional $15 million or so in Fowler...well you just don't have a lot of rope left because those guys largely exhausted it through under-performing.

O.city 10-21-2019 04:04 PM

That's my thing going forward, they're pretty much shoehorned into those guys being here again (minus maybe Ozuna). It's weird that they made it to the NLCS and next season feels pretty meh again.

I don't know what they could even do to bandaid it.

DJ's left nut 10-21-2019 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 14543399)
That's my thing going forward, they're pretty much shoehorned into those guys being here again (minus maybe Ozuna). It's weird that they made it to the NLCS and next season feels pretty meh again.

I don't know what they could even do to bandaid it.

Yeah, it just bugs the hell out of me to see guys like Bader and DeJong catch so much hell because the team was asking them to do things they never should've been asked to do.

Paul DeJong isn't a 2 or 3 hitter and never will be. But he could be a solid 6 hitter and a real damn good 7 hitter. Bader can be an electric and interesting 8th place hitter and dynamic CFer. Then if Carpenter, Fowler, Goldschmidt and Ozuna did what they were SUPPOSED to do at 1-4, you can even move DeJong up to 5 with Wong and Bader at 6,7 (Wong could be a lot like ER was for the 2004 team) and Molina re-setting things ahead of the pitcher at 8 (but with the bat control to make pitchers come after Bader a bit because Yadi can punish them if they don't; that's the major drawback with Bader 8 but it's alleviated somewhat by Yadi at 8 and Bader 7).

There were ways to make this personnel work together really really well.

But 1/2 of them simply didn't answer the bell. And - SURPRISE - they're all handsomely paid.

Because Moe just had to make 'em comfortable.

Moe's failure to bring in good hitters ended up exposing good players who are flawed but bring value in their own right. It subjected guys like DeJong and Bader to criticisms that aren't necessarily unfair, but are definitely over-emphasized. Those guys aren't the reason this team failed. The 'big bats' we imported and/or extended are. But the young guys, the easier marks, are taking heat from the fans.

Reminds me a lot of the shit Matheny used to do especially that season after they missed the playoffs the first time and flingding shows up to camp blaming the rookies (who were the only reason that team remained competitive for as long as it did). Point the fingers at the proper parties, IMO.

BigRedChief 10-21-2019 09:59 PM

Quote:

p
Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14543421)
Yeah, it just bugs the hell out of me to see guys like Bader and DeJong catch so much hell because the team was asking them to do things they never should've been asked to do.

Paul DeJong isn't a 2 or 3 hitter and never will be. But he could be a solid 6 hitter and a real damn good 7 hitter. Bader can be an electric and interesting 8th place hitter and dynamic CFer. Then if Carpenter, Fowler, Goldschmidt and Ozuna did what they were SUPPOSED to do at 1-4, you can even move DeJong up to 5 with Wong and Bader at 6,7 (Wong could be a lot like ER was for the 2004 team) and Molina re-setting things ahead of the pitcher at 8 (but with the bat control to make pitchers come after Bader a bit because Yadi can punish them if they don't; that's the major drawback with Bader 8 but it's alleviated somewhat by Yadi at 8 and Bader 7).

There were ways to make this personnel work together really really well.

But 1/2 of them simply didn't answer the bell. And - SURPRISE - they're all handsomely paid.

Because Moe just had to make 'em comfortable.

Moe's failure to bring in good hitters ended up exposing good players who are flawed but bring value in their own right. It subjected guys like DeJong and Bader to criticisms that aren't necessarily unfair, but are definitely over-emphasized. Those guys aren't the reason this team failed. The 'big bats' we imported and/or extended are. But the young guys, the easier marks, are taking heat from the fans.

Reminds me a lot of the shit Matheny used to do especially that season after they missed the playoffs the first time and flingding shows up to camp blaming the rookies (who were the only reason that team remained competitive for as long as it did). Point the fingers at the proper parties, IMO.

I agree that Bader could be a real asset to the team.

I may not know the deep stats like you do but I got eyes. Bader isnt learning to lay off the slider in the dirt or outside. Or according to what I heard on several podcasts was refusing to change. He was the player who got Budda fired. He refused everything Albert brought over from the Astros. Bader wanted to do it like he’s always been doing it and let the chips fall where they may......two weeks later after flailing around, he was benched.

If Bader doesn’t adapt at the plate, with our shit offense, we can’t afford a defense first player that hits .200.

George Liquor 11-05-2019 01:07 PM

Mozeliak and Girsch both get extensions

:lame:

VAChief 11-05-2019 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDj23 (Post 14576588)
Mozeliak and Girsch both get extensions

:lame:

They both deserve "Joe Dirt" extensions.

Marco Polo 11-05-2019 04:40 PM

Not a fan of Mo or Girsch getting extensions but am glad Shildt got one.

'Hamas' Jenkins 11-05-2019 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDj23 (Post 14576588)
Mozeliak and Girsch both get extensions

:lame:

They should both be fired and they get extensions. It's the ****ing 90s Chiefs again. **** DeWitt in the neck.

BigRedChief 11-05-2019 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDj23 (Post 14576588)
Mozeliak and Girsch both get extensions

:lame:

everyone knew this was coming. But, still.....:mad:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 14577058)
They should both be fired and they get extensions. It's the ****ing 90s Chiefs again. **** DeWitt in the neck.

doesnt matter what the fans think. Only Dewitt. Dewitt sees 3 million fans come in every year, he’s not making a change.

Dewitt's fat and happy with the two WS’s championships and competing each year. Chasing some miracle run with mostly scrappy over performing players like 2006/2011 instead of building an Astros/Yankees/Dodgers type of roster.

Chief Roundup 11-05-2019 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 14577134)
everyone knew this was coming. But, still.....:mad:

doesnt matter what the fans think. Only Dewitt. Dewitt sees 3 million fans come in every year, he’s not making a change.

Dewitt's fat and happy with the two WS’s championships and competing each year. Chasing some miracle run with mostly scrappy over performing players like 2006/2011 instead of building an Astros/Yankees/Dodgers type of roster.

The Yankees had a roster that cost over $200M, Dodgers over $170M, Astros over $165M. The Cards were at $147M.
I am sure there are other ways you meant this, but there is a lot of difference there.

duncan_idaho 11-05-2019 06:31 PM

I do wonder if the “Cardinal way” thought process doesn’t make the Cardinals a little too inflexible in adjusting to changes in running a franchise.

It was great when they were ahead of the game.

Now that the playing field has leveled, are they positioned for finding the next edge?

'Hamas' Jenkins 11-05-2019 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 14577213)
I do wonder if the “Cardinal way” thought process doesn’t make the Cardinals a little too inflexible in adjusting to changes in running a franchise.

It was great when they were ahead of the game.

Now that the playing field has leveled, are they positioned for finding the next edge?

They announced a plan to revamp the analytics department, but if the leaders built the last faulty one, why trust them to do it right this time?

Miles 11-05-2019 10:14 PM

Gross

Pasta Little Brioni 11-06-2019 11:08 AM

What a ****ing joke. Yeah that playoff "run" sure ****ed us in the long run

BigRedChief 11-08-2019 09:02 AM

DJ, Hamas or anyone in the know............. Does Albert get credit for developing the Astros hitters or was it just natural talent or a little of both? Can he really improve our way less talented hitting?


https://www.stltoday.com/sports/colu...950d59c25.html

DJ's left nut 11-08-2019 09:08 AM

{shrug}

I suspect it's largely organizational. The franchise, top to bottom, has embraced some of the sorts of tools that many Cardinals players have resisted. The swing vests and knob trackers and things like that are ingrained throughout the Astros organization.

You get on board or you get gone. That or you're just a guy like Alvarez who's a natural hitter and doesn't need it.

But this shit like Harrison Bader flailing at breaking pitches but resisting changes in coaching? Kid would've just been buried in Houston until he got with the program.

It's gonna take awhile for Albert to have an influence here, IMO. Because it's going to take an organizational shift from top to bottom.

BigRedChief 11-08-2019 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14581244)
{shrug}

I suspect it's largely organizational. The franchise, top to bottom, has embraced some of the sorts of tools that many Cardinals players have resisted. The swing vests and knob trackers and things like that are ingrained throughout the Astros organization.

You get on board or you get gone. That or you're just a guy like Alvarez who's a natural hitter and doesn't need it.

But this shit like Harrison Bader flailing at breaking pitches but resisting changes in coaching? Kid would've just been buried in Houston until he got with the program.

It's gonna take awhile for Albert to have an influence here, IMO. Because it's going to take an organizational shift from top to bottom.

Bader ain’t going to do shit to improve his approach at the plate. Complete denial about his inability to hit a breaking ball. Or recognize it’s going to end up in the dirt or in the other batters box. Look how defensive he is about a viva el birdos article for crissakes

Is Harrison Bader Broken? vivaelbirdos.com/

His public response:
It’s articles like this that continue to fuel the fire .. There is nothing ‘broken’ about my game only work to be done .. More importantly NOTHING can break my work ethic .. 2020 baby ‼️�� .. *throws article in virtual trashcan*

DJ's left nut 11-13-2019 10:06 AM

Shildt with some much deserved hardware - takes home NL MOY.

But yeah - we should totally fire the guy.

PGM man - dude's just never right about anything. Tommy Pham and Mike Shildt are the guys we should be getting rid of. Sure thing, champ.

Pasta Little Brioni 11-13-2019 10:08 AM

Knew exactly what was posted before I even opened the thread. Asshurt much?

DJ's left nut 11-13-2019 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasta Giant Meatball (Post 14593690)
Knew exactly what was posted before I even opened the thread. Asshurt much?

The Cardinals manager won the MOY and it was posted to a Cardinals thread.

I mean yeah - I would HOPE you would know what was posted before you opened the thread. As the most vocal and completely nonsensical of his detractors, I would expect even YOU would have the common sense to realize that you're gonna get called out when MLB honors the guy you wanted to fire. For...reasons.

But yeah - the team got fisted by a squad that was so hot it beat a team many felt just put together the best overall regular season in modern baseball history. And that's Mike Shildt's fault.

You've not been able to actually articulate an argument against this guy ever, so why start now?

Pasta Little Brioni 11-13-2019 10:24 AM

I just fisted you on Clowney to no rebuttal, so you posted this ROFL

DJ's left nut 11-13-2019 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasta Giant Meatball (Post 14593729)
I just fisted you on Clowney to no rebuttal, so you posted this ROFL

You are wrong on multiple topics, including Clowney. Not my fault you don't understand the games you purport to follow.

Marco Polo 11-13-2019 11:06 AM

Happy for Shildt, still think the rest of the front office are in over their heads with the stupid contracts they've passed up.

On another note, is anyone else thinking of going to London for the Cards/Cubs next year? Tickets go on sale next week and I plan on going.

Pasta Little Brioni 11-13-2019 11:09 AM

Eh I have hard enough motivation to drive to a damn game much less fly overseas for one ROFL

Miles 11-13-2019 02:22 PM

In search of a veteran relief pitcher to pay market top dollar. Requirements include being in your 30s (preferably mid 30s), and production used to be effective or highly effective but likely no longer. Pluses include recent injury history and most recent year was the worst in a long while.

George Liquor 11-13-2019 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Polo (Post 14593805)
Happy for Shildt, still think the rest of the front office are in over their heads with the stupid contracts they've passed up.

On another note, is anyone else thinking of going to London for the Cards/Cubs next year? Tickets go on sale next week and I plan on going.

I thought long and hard about going to the London series, but in the end, I just dont want to go to London.

BigRedChief 11-13-2019 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14593685)
Shildt with some much deserved hardware - takes home NL MOY.

He changed the culture of the team. Improved the defense and base running. Well deserved.

I hate his BS everything is rosy crap every time he speaks to the press. But, every NFZl coach fiesvthe same thing. And since the leaked video, we know he’s different when it’s just him and the team.

Maybe it will give him some leverage to push Mo and Dewitt to do something every once in a while like Larussa would do on occasion. LMAO

who am I kidding..... :sulk:

BigRedChief 11-14-2019 05:48 AM

Bunch of ****ing cheaters


<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Proof from <a href="https://twitter.com/incarceratedbob?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@incarceratedbob</a> that the Astros espionage took place during 2017 World Series, MLB needs to hand the death penalty to this crooked franchise. Biggest MLB scandal since 1919 Black Sox. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/LockThemUp?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#LockThemUp</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Whistle?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Whistle</a> <a href="https://t.co/kZus6sShWm">https://t.co/kZus6sShWm</a></p>&mdash; Ben Maller (@benmaller) <a href="https://twitter.com/benmaller/status/1194797836325421056?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 14, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

BigRedChief 11-20-2019 08:22 PM

Any of these have an upside?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/stlcards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#stlcards</a> have selected Elehuris Montero, Jake Woodford, and RHP Alvaro Seijas.<br><br>Dominic Leone DFA to make room.</p>&mdash; Jeff Jones (@jmjones) <a href="https://twitter.com/jmjones/status/1197285617555648513?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 20, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

VAChief 11-21-2019 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 14611272)
Any of these have an upside?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/stlcards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#stlcards</a> have selected Elehuris Montero, Jake Woodford, and RHP Alvaro Seijas.<br><br>Dominic Leone DFA to make room.</p>&mdash; Jeff Jones (@jmjones) <a href="https://twitter.com/jmjones/status/1197285617555648513?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 20, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Montero for me has the most upside, but he didn't progress from Peoria to Springfield well so this next year will be interesting to follow to see if he can adjust. At Peoria he looked like a burgeoning stud then fell off the table last year.

Seijas doesn't really impress, certainly would be surprised if he continues as a starter. His stuff and his size projects more as a middle reliever.

Woodford could be a back end of the rotation guy. I'd be surprised if he could be any more than that, at least nothing in his minor league stats suggest otherwise. At one time I thought maybe he could be a Lance Lynn type, but that was a mirage. WHIP is a stat I really like as a predictor, and his are average to poor at best especially for someone who doesn't strike out hitters at high rate.

BigRedChief 11-21-2019 07:58 AM

<samp class="EmbedCode-container"><code class="EmbedCode-code"><blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">For <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CardAnnals?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#CardAnnals</a> we decided to look back in history for other evidence of sign stealing and you’ll be shocked what we found. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/stlcards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#stlcards</a> <a href="https://t.co/3byqzuTkbe">pic.twitter.com/3byqzuTkbe</a></p>&mdash; CardsCards (@StlCardsCards) <a href="https://twitter.com/StlCardsCards/status/1197497809408339970?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 21, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> </code></samp>

Pasta Little Brioni 11-21-2019 02:36 PM

Laaaaaame

Marco Polo 11-21-2019 05:03 PM

Purchased Cards/Cubs tickets for the two games in London next summer. Let's just hope they win at least one to make it worth my while.

'Hamas' Jenkins 11-21-2019 06:26 PM

Leone gave the Cards 64 IP for -0.1 WAR. What a ****ing turd. How do you lose a Randal Grichuk trade?

BigRedChief 12-10-2019 11:51 PM

I guess we got Flaherty for 4 more years and that’s it.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Source confirms: Cole to <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Yankees?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Yankees</a>, nine years, $324M. First reported: <a href="https://twitter.com/JonHeyman?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@JonHeyman</a>.</p>&mdash; Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) <a href="https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1204627245320458240?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 11, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

O.city 12-11-2019 07:07 AM

Someone reported the cards were interested in trading for David price

Yay I guess?

George Liquor 12-11-2019 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 14649623)
Someone reported the cards were interested in trading for David price

Yay I guess?

Makes sense, this FO loves it some aging superstars.

Miles 12-11-2019 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDj23 (Post 14649673)
Makes sense, this FO loves it some aging superstars.

Was thinking the same. Checks a lot of boxes including very high salary and declining velocity.

O.city 12-11-2019 08:28 AM

Pretty much

It's hilarious they always talk about keeping powder dry and cant spend on a big player, yet if you added up all the shitty deals, it would equal that big player.

DJ's left nut 12-11-2019 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 14649684)
Pretty much

It's hilarious they always talk about keeping powder dry and cant spend on a big player, yet if you added up all the shitty deals, it would equal that big player.

Cant afford/justify paying Bryce Harper $25 million/yr through age 36 while still getting his prime seasons.

Totally cool with paying Paul Goldschmidt $27 million/yr through age 36 WITHOUT getting his prime seasons, but only after giving up significant prospect capital. Oh, and then getting into the market for David Price at $31 million/yr through age 36 coming off an injury plagued disaster of a season.

This front office is unbelievably stupid and short-sighted. Rendon's going to get probably 5-6 million/season more than Harper and he's nowhere near the long-term asset Harper would've been.

But Mozeliak "couldn't put all his eggs in one basket" so we'll just roll Fowler, Bader and Lane Thomas as our outfield. But hey, I'm sure Goldy will save the day!

O.city 12-11-2019 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14649709)
Cant afford/justify paying Bryce Harper $25 million/yr through age 36 while still getting his prime seasons.

Totally cool with paying Paul Goldschmidt $27 million/yr through age 36 WITHOUT getting his prime seasons, but only after giving up significant prospect capital. Oh, and then getting into the market for David Price at $31 million/yr through age 36 coming off an injury plagued disaster of a season.

This front office is unbelievably stupid and short-sighted. Rendon's going to get probably 5-6 million/season more than Harper and he's nowhere near the long-term asset Harper would've been.

But Mozeliak "couldn't put all his eggs in one basket" so we'll just roll Fowler, Bader and Lane Thomas as our outfield. But hey, I'm sure Goldy will save the day!

That's the thing, the whole eggs in a basket argument doesn't hold water when you end up blowing all that capitol on 4 guys that suck anyway.

O.city 12-11-2019 12:18 PM

Rockies will listen on arenado

Let’s do that

VAChief 12-11-2019 02:16 PM

Saw a CBS writer calling for a Lindor to Cards (for DeJong, ONeill, and Edman). I don't think that would do it, but if it would I would pull that trigger even if he is a possible free agent in 2022.

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/m...huge-signings/

duncan_idaho 12-11-2019 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VAChief (Post 14650494)
Saw a CBS writer calling for a Lindor to Cards (for DeJong, ONeill, and Edman). I don't think that would do it, but if it would I would pull that trigger even if he is a possible free agent in 2022.

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/m...huge-signings/


Not even close.

Dylan Carlson is the name that gets that done.

DJ's left nut 12-11-2019 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 14650566)
Not even close.

Dylan Carlson is the name that gets that done.

The Cardinals can no longer be in the business of trading prospects for short-term commitments when they have not shown the stomach for significant long-term contracts or the wherewithal to recognize which ones they should be actively avoiding to begin with.

If the Cardinals make that deal, they'll be crying poor the same as the Indians in 2 years when he's a FA.

They've shot their wad the last 2 years. With Gallen, Kelly and Weaver as notable defections in deals that have done little but make them more expensive and inflexible, not to mention asinine 'thank you' contracts for slugs like Carpenter, they simply do not have the organizational depth or long-term flexibility to make moves like that anymore. They can't go after Arenado for the same reason.

Maybe they did in 2016, but they don't anymore. They aren't a 'power team' that can show up and be on the other side of the 'small market/big market' power dynamic. Not with this level of commitment from ownership anyway.

Now they need to be actively seeking 'baseball deals' where they see what it would take to pry a lefty with power and solid contact skills who can be an RBI bat for them in LF - namely Eddie Rosario. And not because the Twins don't want to pay for the guy, but because they have depth and a need that we may be able to address from our depth.

They've exhausted any market advantages they may have had with wrong-headed moves over the last 3-4 seasons. Now they have to do it the hard way - they have to be smarter than their opponents.

Personally I don't believe Mozeliak is up for the task.

VAChief 12-11-2019 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 14650566)
Not even close.

Dylan Carlson is the name that gets that done.

We can't afford to give him up. Unfortunately the crap deals we have given out basically have us hoping guys like Bader, ONeill, etc. figure out MLB and make a leap. Mo should have been fired for the Carp extension alone...it was that stupid.

DJ's left nut 12-11-2019 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VAChief (Post 14650620)
We can't afford to give him up. Unfortunately the crap deals we have given out basically have us hoping guys like Bader, ONeill, etc. figure out MLB and make a leap. Mo should have been fired for the Carp extension alone...it was that stupid.

Moe's already leaked to the local media that the Carpenter extension was Girsch's baby.

Gotta love that one. Girsch almost certainly can't wipe his own ass without Mozeliak's say-so and Moe has the local scribes out there throwing his hand-picked stooge under the bus for arguably the dumbest thing I've ever seen a baseball team do.

And it's funnier because of how predictable it was. Girsch's promotion was so obviously designed to give Mozeliak a fall-guy that it's hard to believe he took the job to begin with. He HAD to know that his sole purpose was to get fired if the Cardinals missed the playoffs last year (and probably to get fired if they miss them this season). Bottom line is that the instant someone needs to be held accountable, presuming they've already dismissed a minor league hitting coordinator or two, Girsch is the one that's gonna get to visit The Turk.

duncan_idaho 12-11-2019 03:34 PM

The extensions for Carpenter and Molina have been hindering, for sure. Even the Goldschmidt extension seems questionable.

It’s from Nightingale, so it probably is bullshit, but he says the Dodgers and Indians are talking about Lindor, with Lux and May going back to Cleveland.

^ would be a huge coup for the Indians. Lux in that park (which is so good for lefty power) would be dynamite.

DJ's left nut 12-11-2019 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 14650646)
The extensions for Carpenter and Molina have been hindering, for sure. Even the Goldschmidt extension seems questionable.

It’s from Nightingale, so it probably is bullshit, but he says the Dodgers and Indians are talking about Lindor, with Lux and May going back to Cleveland.

^ would be a huge coup for the Indians. Lux in that park (which is so good for lefty power) would be dynamite.

Holy crap, that would be a huge haul for the Indians. And if offered, they kinda have to pull the trigger. Then start the bidding on Kluber and maybe even Clevinger.

But the ALC is winnable and May is good. Dude's stuff was absolutely filthy several times I saw him pitch. If Lux could give them performance similar to, say, Jorge Polanco (which is a fairly reasonable possiblity) and May can be along the lines of, I dunno, Joey Luchessi....doesn't that give them a reasonable shot at 85+ wins?

Obviously they'd need Ramirez to be closer to the player he was in '18 (and the latter half of '19) and they'd need Mercado and Naquin to take a bit of a step forward. They also have Franmil Reyes and Jake Bauers who both have 3 win potential (though I'm really struggling to figure out why Bauers isn't working; I liked that guy quite a bit).

They could make that deal, get Kluber flipped for another top 100 prospect or solid young veteran (wonder if they could get the Yankees to bite on a Frazier deal) and still be frisky in that division. But much younger and much cheaper. Would the Cole deal make them less likely or MORE likely to deal a toolsy kid like Florial who may simply never make it at all?

Miles 12-11-2019 04:20 PM

Wacha to the Mets

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/...ael-wacha.html

Quote:

3:23pm: There’s a deal in place pending a physical, per MLB.com’s Mark Feinsand (Twitter link). It guarantees $3MM, per Sherman (via Twitter), with up to $7MM in possible incentives.

duncan_idaho 12-11-2019 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14650665)
Holy crap, that would be a huge haul for the Indians. And if offered, they kinda have to pull the trigger. Then start the bidding on Kluber and maybe even Clevinger.



But the ALC is winnable and May is good. Dude's stuff was absolutely filthy several times I saw him pitch. If Lux could give them performance similar to, say, Jorge Polanco (which is a fairly reasonable possiblity) and May can be along the lines of, I dunno, Joey Luchessi....doesn't that give them a reasonable shot at 85+ wins?



Obviously they'd need Ramirez to be closer to the player he was in '18 (and the latter half of '19) and they'd need Mercado and Naquin to take a bit of a step forward. They also have Franmil Reyes and Jake Bauers who both have 3 win potential (though I'm really struggling to figure out why Bauers isn't working; I liked that guy quite a bit).



They could make that deal, get Kluber flipped for another top 100 prospect or solid young veteran (wonder if they could get the Yankees to bite on a Frazier deal) and still be frisky in that division. But much younger and much cheaper. Would the Cole deal make them less likely or MORE likely to deal a toolsy kid like Florial who may simply never make it at all?


Yeah, it’s a must-make deal if it’s really there. I’d try to move Kluber and hang on to Clevinger if I were them and making a deal. Or move one of Civale/Plutko/etc. for a young position player who can help them now.

I think Lux’s floor in Cleveland is something like what Polanco did last year (.295/.339/.444), and I think he’d OBP and SLG higher than that.

Something like .300/.360/.525 wouldn’t surprise me a bit.

DJ's left nut 12-11-2019 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 14650713)
Yeah, it’s a must-make deal if it’s really there. I’d try to move Kluber and hang on to Clevinger if I were them and making a deal. Or move one of Civale/Plutko/etc. for a young position player who can help them now.

I think Lux’s floor in Cleveland is something like what Polanco did last year (.295/.339/.444), and I think he’d OBP and SLG higher than that.

Something like .300/.360/.525 wouldn’t surprise me a bit.

As a rook?

Gonna be hard pressed to talk me into those kinds of numbers for dudes getting their first prolonged look at big league pitching. Especially when you have PCL squads with a .900 OPS as a team. PCL numbers mean precisely jack and shit right now. About all you can do is ignore AAA figures outright and see how an .890 OPS in AA would project to the big leagues. Gotta believe you'll see more of a decrease than to a mere .885.

duncan_idaho 12-11-2019 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14650734)
As a rook?



Gonna be hard pressed to talk me into those kinds of numbers for dudes getting their first prolonged look at big league pitching. Especially when you have PCL squads with a .900 OPS as a team. PCL numbers mean precisely jack and shit right now. About all you can do is ignore AAA figures outright and see how an .890 OPS in AA would project to the big leagues. Gotta believe you'll see more of a decrease than to a mere .885.


If they don’t change the ball, yeah. The PCL was using the MLB ball. Believe he OPSed 1100 or close to it at AAA, right?

Miles 12-11-2019 11:42 PM

Rendon to the Angels for 7/245.


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