He said it to Sam. He's the only Lord Commander in history to sacrifice the lives of men of the Nights Watch to save the lives of wildlings.

That stunt at hard home did it. There were some other things, I'm sure that Irish mother****er is still pissed off at him for losing the election and some dudes just don't like Sam. And some guys think he is a pretentious **** but it is mostly the hardhome thing.

He was just proven right about bringing all the wildlings south with the Night King's now huge army. There were other members of the Night's Watch there to corroborate that he was, in fact, correct about the White Walkers, and therefore the need for as many wildlings as possible to be brought through the wall.

Hardhome is exactly why they shouldn't kill him. The Night's Watch only has reason to hate the wildlings if there isn't a bigger enemy out there.

Rational decision making isn't necessarily these mother****ers strong suit.

Yes, there are several major parts of the books that were not even in the TV series yet. Including a "Red Wedding" type shocker that will be spoiled. The timeline in the books has passed in the TV series but there is no reason they can't being it up next season.

There is also more about the ironborn. There are at least a 1000 pages on those two things that are not in the series. Thats almost a whole book by itself.

But, they may never make it to the TV, so its really up to you non
-book readers.

Some of the Watch do not seem to be able to get beyond their Wildling contempt to see the big picture.

I definitely saw an individual attempt being made on Jon, but I don't really get the group think behind assassinating him. Why open the gate and let the Wildlings through at all, if they are just going to pull this shit?

Guess it just shows that human beings suck. Can't even stand side by side against a common enemy and far greater danger.

The stupid thing is they got an army on the other, unprotected, side of the wall. They just killed the only person that has favor with that army. Dumb.

The characters in the books actually have a reasonable motivation for killing Jon.

I really couldn't say. As a non-book reader of GoT, I can see Alliser wanting to be top dog. I can understand the kid seeking only revenge on the Wildlings for his village being butchered by Wildings.. all the while not seeing the big picture of humans vs WW/undead.

That's about all I can appreciate about killing Jon.. from a non-book reader POV. :shrug:

The Watch and their actions, while illogical, are a microcosm of what's going on in all of Westeros. People are concerned with their political bullshit when the real threat that could wipe them all out is marching on their asses.

I mean, all of Westeros is acting illogically and idiotically (and the books do a much better job of showing this) in that they are aware of reports from beyond the Wall that "Winter is Coming," but they aren't concerned with that. They're just worried about their own myopic political gains.

Very well said.

This show was so great when it was character driven and concentrated on human politics, deceit, and general interaction...

Now it's turing into LOTR. ugh

They ran out of material from GRRM and are now winging it, but they aren't capable of thinking through the depth that he has that made the show interesting in the first place.

I seriously am worried for the next two seasons and fear that this is going to come to a horribly unsatisfying conclusion.

Is the source material part of the problem though? I have seen people here and in various articles saying the most recent book or two have been less than stellar and really just dragged on.

I too am a bit worried for the next season. This season was definitely below the first four seasons in dialogue and intrigue. I am just hoping if the new book comes out before next season that it will be a big infusion of material to work with.

Yes. The source material is THE problem, imo. I feel like a broken record, but GRRM is, ultimately, an author who writes "books with imaginary maps." Fantasy authors are so freaking obsessed with world/culture creation and all the cool stuff they think up that they forget to write a story. They'd rather spin off some excuse of a side plot that will allows them to get some crap like the Sand Snakes (and if you've read the book, it's even worse with the number of stupid, meaningless spinoffs he creates) because they're "cool."

When the story was character driven, it was interesting. It's become culture/world driven now, imo. It's just about him fleshing out the world in tedious detail. Robert Jordan did the same crap with the Wheel of Time.

I actually think the show writers have done an excellent job of winnowing down some of the freaking plotlines and condensing/combining others so that it makes a tighter, more coherent story.