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-   -   Science Scientists find cosmic ripples from birth of universe (https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=282341)

Fish 03-19-2014 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ (Post 10501998)
lol, whatever. The burden of proof is squarely on you to explain how the big bang theory does not violate the first law of thermodynamics.

Because of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Which has been tested and confirmed.

Quote:

But what made the universe and all its mass come into being at all? The suggestion is that the universe began as a quantum fluctuation of the vacuum. It used to be thought that the vacuum was truly nothing, simply inert space. But we now know that it is actually a hive of activity with particle-antiparticle pairs being repeatedly produced out of the vacuum and almost immediately annihilating themselves into nothingness again. The creation of a particle-antiparticle pair out of the vacuum violates the law of conservation of energy but the Heisenberg uncertainty principle allows such violations for a very short time. This phenomenon has observable and measurable consequences, which have been tested and confirmed. (The Inflationary Universe, Alan Guth, 1997, p. 272)

Guth says (p. 12-14, 271-276) that the person who first suggested that the universe and its associated space may have originated as a quantum fluctuation was Edward Tryon in 1973 in his paper Is the Universe a Vacuum Fluctuation? (Nature, vol. 246, p. 396-397, 14 December 1973.) As Tryon says in that paper:

In any big bang model, one must deal with the problem of 'creation'. This problem has two aspects. One is that the conservation laws of physics forbid the creation of something from nothing. The other is that even if the conservation laws were inapplicable at the moment of creation, there is no apparent reason for such an event to occur.

Contrary to widespread belief, such an event need not have violated any of the conventional laws of physics. The laws of physics merely imply that a Universe which appears from nowhere must have certain specific properties. In particular, such a Universe must have a zero net value for all conserved quantities.

To indicate how such a creation might have come about, I refer to quantum field theory, in which every phenomenon that could happen in principle actually does happen occasionally in practice, on a statistically random basis. For example, quantum electrodynamics reveals that an electron, positron and photon occasionally emerge spontaneously from a perfect vacuum. When this happens, the three particles exist for a brief time, and then annihilate each other, leaving no trace behind.

If it is true that our Universe has a zero net value for all conserved quantities, then it may simply be a fluctuation of the vacuum, the vacuum of some larger space in which our Universe is imbedded. In answer to the question of why it happened, I offer the modest proposal that our Universe is simply one of those things which happen from time to time.
Note that our universe likely came into being with just a tiny amount of matter. But after that initial fluctuation triggered the start of the universe, what caused the avalanche that created the massive amount of matter that currently comprise our universe? The inflationary model of the universe takes care of that problem too, although the explanation is a little technical. As Stenger says (p. 148):

[I]n the inflationary scenario, the mass-energy of matter was produced during that rapid initial inflation. The field responsible for inflation has negative pressure, allowing the universe to do work on itself as it expands. This is allowed by the first law of thermodynamics.
In other words, no energy was required to "create" the universe. The zero total energy of the universe is an observational fact, within measured uncertainties, of course. What is more, this is also a prediction of inflationary cosmology, which we have seen has now been strongly supported by observations. Thus we can safely say,
No violation of energy conservation occurred if the universe grew out of an initial void of zero energy.

http://machineslikeus.com/news/big-b...rvation-energy

Tombstone RJ 03-19-2014 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest31kc (Post 10502045)
It explains how the Big Bang Theory does not violate the First Law of Thermodynamics.

But okay.

at what part exactly?

WhiteWhale 03-19-2014 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest31kc (Post 10502045)
It explains how the Big Bang Theory does not violate the First Law of Thermodynamics.

But okay.

He can't verify his outrageous claim, therefore it has no merit.

All he can do is say "No, U!"

He should not enter that sauce into the county fair, because it is weak.

Dr. Van Halen 03-19-2014 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ (Post 10502028)
the conservation of energy is not hard to understand, but you think insulting people somehow absolves you of trying to reconcile how the big bang theory violates this law. You not only are stupid, you are lazy too.

Heisenberg uncertainty principle allows these type of violations in short bursts.

I mention this not because I am an expert, but because I took your question, did a simple Google search, and found several answers that are supported by observable fact.

Priest31kc 03-19-2014 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ (Post 10502056)
at what part exactly?

Go to the 16:00 minute mark or so...

Tombstone RJ 03-19-2014 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish (Post 10502052)
Because of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Which has been tested and confirmed.

Thank You! So the theory of zero energy is the key to this theory! At least that is something...

Tombstone RJ 03-19-2014 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest31kc (Post 10502068)
Go to the 16:00 minute mark or so...

ok I watched that part and a little more. I still struggle with the fact that it this theory is based on a random event. But the idea that negative energy and positive energy cancel themselves out leaving the theory of zero energy to enable the universe to start is something that needs further investigation.

Fish 03-19-2014 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ (Post 10502098)
ok I watched that part and a little more. I still struggle with the fact that it this theory is based on a random event. But the idea that negative energy and positive energy cancel themselves out leaving the theory of zero energy to enable the universe to start is something that needs further investigation.

Honestly, we probably can't really expand this any further until we have a grand theory that satisfies both relative theory and quantum theory at the same time. There are 4 natural forces(we know of) in the universe. Gravity, weak force, strong force, and electromagnetism. Our physics explains how these 4 forces work in the universe.

Relative theory explains very well the motion of what we consider large bodies focusing on the force of gravity. But when you try to apply the theory of relativity(gravity) to very small scenarios, some things happen that relativity cannot explain. To simplify, gravity acts weird at really really small scales, and relativity breaks down. Inversely, quantum theory does very well at explaining things that happen on a very small scale, by looking at the natural forces other than gravity. Electromagnetic, weak, and strong forces in nature. These forces have great effect at very small scales where gravity is essentially insignificant. But these 3 forces are so weak at large scales that the physics again breaks down. Quantum mechanics in turn cannot explain some things that happen on very large scales, mostly because gravity is the dominant force there.

Which is also why quantum mechanics could actually serve as a better model than relativity for explaining the Big Bang because it's describing the universe as a tiny singularity where quantum physics works better. Gravity doesn't have much if any affect in a singularity, which is why the Big Bang theory doesn't necessarily violate relativity.

That said.... we need a new model that explains all 4 natural forces simultaneously.

When we finally discover the "Theory of everything" that can explain physics correctly at all scales of reference, we'll have another explosion of knowledge and information even bigger than when we proved the relativity and quantum theories. And it will happen eventually. Hopefully in our lifetime. It may very well be that we need to include another force(s) other than the 4 that we know. Perhaps it will require new physics to include what we now know as dark energy/matter/weakly interacting massive particles. That's my guess.

Dave Lane 03-19-2014 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish (Post 10502202)
Honestly, we probably can't really expand this any further until we have a grand theory that satisfies both relative theory and quantum theory at the same time. There are 4 natural forces(we know of) in the universe. Gravity, weak force, strong force, and electromagnetism. Our physics explains how these 4 forces work in the universe.

Relative theory explains very well the motion of what we consider large bodies focusing on the force of gravity. But when you try to apply the theory of relativity(gravity) to very small scenarios, some things happen that relativity cannot explain. To simplify, gravity acts weird at really really small scales, and relativity breaks down. Inversely, quantum theory does very well at explaining things that happen on a very small scale, by looking at the natural forces other than gravity. Electromagnetic, weak, and strong forces in nature. These forces have great effect at very small scales where gravity is essentially insignificant. But these 3 forces are so weak at large scales that the physics again breaks down. Quantum mechanics in turn cannot explain some things that happen on very large scales, mostly because gravity is the dominant force there.

Which is also why quantum mechanics could actually serve as a better model than relativity for explaining the Big Bang because it's describing the universe as a tiny singularity where quantum physics works better. Gravity doesn't have much if any affect in a singularity, which is why the Big Bang theory doesn't necessarily violate relativity.

That said.... we need a new model that explains all 4 natural forces simultaneously.

When we finally discover the "Theory of everything" that can explain physics correctly at all scales of reference, we'll have another explosion of knowledge and information even bigger than when we proved the relativity and quantum theories. And it will happen eventually. Hopefully in our lifetime. It may very well be that we need to include another force(s) other than the 4 that we know. Perhaps it will require new physics to include what we now know as dark energy/matter/weakly interacting massive particles. That's my guess.

Thanks fish for a great post. It's entirely too much typing for me however I agree and I do think that dark energy or matter is going to play a role with tying the theories of the small and the large together.

BigRedChief 03-19-2014 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Lane (Post 10502539)
Thanks fish for a great post. It's entirely too much typing for me however I agree and I do think that dark energy or matter is going to play a role with tying the theories of the small and the large together.

We don't even know what Dark matter is made out of? How it acts? It's like what 85% of the universe, correct? Basically its a way we are giving mass to something that has no mass?

When we figure out what dark matter and energy is or how it interacts with the universe.....it would seem we are ready to make a big leap in science and change not just our understanding of the universe but our current life's.

Fish 03-19-2014 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 10503004)
We don't even know what Dark matter is made out of? How it acts? It's like what 85% of the universe, correct? Basically its a way we are giving mass to something that has no mass?

When we figure out what dark matter and energy is or how it interacts with the universe.....it would seem we are ready to make a big leap in science and change not just our understanding of the universe but our current life's.

No, actually dark matter clearly has mass. Lots of mass. Detectable mass, which is where the 85% figure comes from. It just doesn't exhibit any electromagnetic attributes. Which is why we can't "See" it and detect it like normal matter. It doesn't emit or absorb light at all. It seems that the only thing detectable that it does have is mass(and maybe weak force).

'Hamas' Jenkins 03-19-2014 09:08 PM

Define irony:

Someone with no background in science who feels they are qualified to discredit the theses of brilliant individuals who have spent a lifetime contributing to a compendium of knowledge.

hometeam 03-19-2014 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 10503188)
Define irony:

Someone with no background in science who feels they are qualified to discredit the theses of brilliant individuals who have spent a lifetime collaborating to a compendium of knowledge.

Right.

That is my main argument to people who just.cant.get.it. People can accept EVERYTHING that comes from science, computers, satellites, medicine, OUR ENTIRE WORLD, and we KNOW it works. You know, because THAT IS HOW WE WHERE ABLE TO CREATE THESE THINGS! And then people dedicate their entire lives to knowing about how things TRULY work, collaborating all around the world, in the past and going into the future. And when they talk about anything that is at odds with stone aged myths, all the sudden, the 'science isnt in' or any other number of excuses, we have heard them all. Are you kidding me?

The other day, in a single conversation. I had an otherwise intelligent person tell me;

1. 'they found noahs ark, they found it!'
2. Carbon dating has been disproven
3. Humans have only been around for 2000 years
4. The bible was written in the 1800s, after science had taken hold, so science has proven the bible true.

This is why people who understand science, and how it really works, get so exasperated all the time.

Come on.

track 03-19-2014 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish (Post 10503040)
No, actually dark matter clearly has mass. Lots of mass. Detectable mass, which is where the 85% figure comes from. It just doesn't exhibit any electromagnetic attributes. Which is why we can't "See" it and detect it like normal matter. It doesn't emit or absorb light at all. It seems that the only thing detectable that it does have is mass(and maybe weak force).

Actually it's more like 25 % for dark matter, 65% for dark energy and the rest is ordinary matter....or close to those percentages

WhiteWhale 03-19-2014 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hometeam (Post 10503242)
Right.

That is my main argument to people who just.cant.get.it. People can accept EVERYTHING that comes from science, computers, satellites, medicine, OUR ENTIRE WORLD, and we KNOW it works. You know, because THAT IS HOW WE WHERE ABLE TO CREATE THESE THINGS! And then people dedicate their entire lives to knowing about how things TRULY work, collaborating all around the world, in the past and going into the future. And when they talk about anything that is at odds with stone aged myths, all the sudden, the 'science isnt in' or any other number of excuses, we have heard them all. Are you kidding me?

The other day, in a single conversation. I had an otherwise intelligent person tell me;

1. 'they found noahs ark, they found it!'
2. Carbon dating has been disproven
3. Humans have only been around for 2000 years
4. The bible was written in the 1800s, after science had taken hold, so science has proven the bible true.

This is why people who understand science, and how it really works, get so exasperated all the time.

Come on.

Yeah, I had a guy once tell me that our history had been artificially compressed and that 'known history' all took place within the past 600 years.

People say weird stuff.


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