That was the worst part about the entire night. So dumb.

The Rock haters remind me of Tiger Woods haters. Just can't accept that nobody but the diehards watch for the other guys.

No replay up yet.

I like the Rock. My problem is more with having a repeat of the "once in a lifetime" Cena-Rock wrestlemania feud.

From a business perspective, it makes a ton of sense for the belt to be on Rock heading into wrestlemania. He's more mainstream than anybody in the company. I get that. It means tons more for him to have it than it does for CM Punk to be the champion, when they're using Rock for the next three months to build to mania as he promos his movies.

But the end result of this is going to be Cena getting the belt.

That's what I hate.

Rock is gone in April. SuperCena is back as of today. And that makes WWE much, much less interesting for anybody over the age of 5.

They're falling into the same trap yet again. The approach isn't doing anything to build new stars. It's the John Cena show, with everybody else getting guest star billing. And he just plain sucks.

(Literally. He may have delivered the worst promo I've ever seen last Monday).

the problem with this is that,

a) putting the belt on the Rock means the Rock has to show up for all Raw dates, will he even do that? He didnt even do that on the road to Wrestlemania last year. Yes I know hes got a new GI Joe movie to promote in March, but that also means TONS of on the road Hollywood promoting as well, television interviews, and commitments outside of the WWE. Is this what you want your "current" champ to be doing? Guys like Cena, Punk, Sheamus, Orton. They dont DO ANYTHING ELSE. So when they are the champ, they make that their #1 priority. The Rock has much bigger things to do and on his plate that committing to a WWE belt imo.


2) The Rock and names like that (Taker, HHH, whoever) are gone the day WM ends. April, June, July the company takes a HUGE dip in viewers, etc because all the names that they rely on to carry their ratings to WM just leave. And thus, it goes back to guys like Punk to carry a WWE Raw and no named April pay per view because everyone over the age of 40 leaves.

This has been a huge developmental block for the WWE for the last 5 years following this formula. None of the young talent can get built up, because they keep going back to the 40 year olds for ratings, and then when they all leave after March, the product is watered down with a bunch of guys that werent put over. So they build them up and then come the new year put them back down to mid card for the 40 year old names again.

It's an awful model and pretty soon with the names are too old or too injured *cough Undertaker* there wont be anyone to carry their marquee pay per view anymore.

oh correct that, he actually has TWO movies coming out between February and March

and hes going to be at WWE while he has two obligations by Hollywood studios to promote their products as Dwayne the Hollywood actor?

I find this very hard to believe he will be around much until like 3 weeks before WM.

Rock's scheduled for tons and tons of dates between now and mania. Many more than last year.

I haven't watched the product in a solid three years. That said, I've been plowing through WWE bios on Netflix as I battle insomnia the last few weeks, so I've been glancing at this thread with mildly piqued interest.

Is the disdain for Rock because he's a derivative PG-version of himself, because he's going to dump the belt to Cena for another reign of terror, or because he beat Punk?

Second question and third question: I watched Orton's bio the other night, which was odd because it actually stayed in kayfabe while being a legit bio. He said his first suspension was actually due to an overdose on sleeping pills, whereas the going story was always that he got caught smoking weed backstage.

Did he actually OD on sleeping pills, or was he caught using other substances as well? Secondly, when he got suspended last year, was it due to 'roids and pot or other drugs?

kthxbye.

Just to add my "what I'd have done instead": I'd have had Punk retain, leading to a match with Undertaker at mania, belt streak versus mania streak. Taker wins, retires and vacates title. Punk's a bigger star for retaining versus Rock and main eventing versus Taker, even with a loss at mania.

I have no idea who Punk feuds with now. I can't imagine anything that will be worth a damn. I guess he'll be one of the guys in the EC match, but after that? Who in the world is there for him to feud with. He has to be going back to the mid card and some obscure match down at the bottom of the mania card.

Taker? No idea if he's even wrestling. We'll probably find out tomorrow. I hope it's not HHH again. But who am I kidding. It's HHH again.

Like I said, I get Rock having the belt. Maybe he can make it a big deal. But he and Cena don't need a title to establish the main event. And I can't imagine anything worse than the belt inevitably ending up on Cena so he can go on an even longer title reign than Punk.

The Rumble match tonight did absolutely nothing for anybody. Put Ziggler over, he has the briefcase and the Rumble win. Has that ever happened? Hotshot him going into wrestlemania. Find another way to get Cena involved with the Rock. Put somebody else over. But no, they do the absolute worst thing possible, have it end up with Ryback, Sheamus and Cena. Ziggler loses again. Because that's all he ever does. Because that's what Vince does to establish people. And it never, ever works. They should've turned him, given him the New Flair gimmick, put him on a win streak, kept Miz a heel.

Of course I'm the minority here. In the big picture, joe sixpack average fan probably loved that faces won every match tonight, and the same old guys are back at the top again.

ROFL when you put it like that.

Ugh, please know. I figured it would be HHH/Lesnar at Mania.

I can't wait to go Mania only to watch the inevitable Cena win over Rock. The only hope is the microscopic chance of a heal turn.

Apparently ATM its Jericho/Ryback for Wrestlemania. LMAO?

PG Rock is almost unwatchable.

The Attitude Era "Corporate" Champion Rock is what's needed for TV.


I know that SCSA "shouldn't" be able to wrestle again.

But there is a much needed Rock vs Stone Cold WM........"One more match"

I am biased as I am a huge fan, but if WWE had any balls they would have Punk end Taker's streak at WM. By having Taker continue to beat people at WM helps nobody other than his own ego. It is a long and storied tradition that wrestlers leave the business with their shoulders pinned to pass the torch to the next guy. So if Taker is retiring, Punk should be that guy to get the torch.

The storyline is simple. Punk comes out, says he had a legendary streak with the world title belt, now he is aiming higher and going after THE streak.

no

Never been a fan of the Rock, hell I cant stand Cena either but I found myself cheering for him at WM last year vs Rock.

WWE has no respect for their own product. I'm still mad at that finish. Like, actual seething anger. A retired wrestler -- a Hollywood actor -- has two matches in the last 10 years and they both are victories against your kayfabe two "best" wrestlers? A ****ing actor comes in and ends Punk's 434-day title reign with an elbow drop? That shows disrespect, even contempt, for your current roster. It makes every single active WWE wrestler look kayfabe pathetic.

Ending Punk's reign should have been something that makes a new star out of someone. Having The Rock end it (in such a terribly executed way to boot) doesn't help your product at all.

Is there anyone on planet Earth who is going to buy Wrestlemania now that the WWE championship is on the line with Cena/Rock II that WASN'T already going to buy Wrestlemania with just a no-belt Cena/Rock II match on the card?

It's so ****ing easy to make WWE programming both compelling and profitable, and WWE just can't stay out of their own way.

My watch party seemed to think that we were still headed for Punk/Undertaker at 'Mania. That match would have been ten times more compelling if Punk still had the title. A reigning, defending WWE champion for 500+ days coming in to take on The Streak? Awesome. Keg is absolutely right here. You have to give audiences a reason to think that Undertaker could lose.

How is an audience supposed to feel threatened by CM Punk now? He hasn't won clean on a PPV in like half a year, and his whole gimmick has been "my belt means I'm better than you." Now that he doesn't have the belt how's he supposed to be compelling (I have faith he'll figure something out).

I'm mostly sad that Punk's title reign -- THE story of 2012 -- had no satisfying narrative resolution. You could argue that the man he attacked to turn heel was the one who ended the reign, and that provides some resolution, but I don't buy it. You build up Punk to have a reign of terror and it gets snuffed out. Ended T.S. Eliot style, not with a bang but a whimper.

I agree that the way Punk lost was stupid and that it is somewhat disrespectful to the guys that bust their ass everyday to have Rock win the title when he is only there maybe 5-10 days a year.

On the flip side it is all about the Benjamin's and with Rock having the title while promoting his movies will help the WWE.

Also, WWE Champions are expected to wrestle house shows. You think Dwayne is going to go on the road? Nope. Think about if you were a paying customer, who two months ago bought a ticket for you and a ticket for each of your two sons, for a house show near you. You aren't even going to see the company champion for your money. Unprecedented, as far as I know.

so was Brock Lesnar and look how that turned out.

The Rock has two movies out and whatever promotion schedule Hollywood demands of him so we will see how juggles both. Hollywood hates his wrestling schedule and that is a fact, it has come out a few times how they dont want him near the WWE when a movie drops so they can go send him on a promo tour, cause that's how movie studios work.

It's the same with Jericho and his crappy metal band. If he wants to tour, he goes and tours for music, not wrestling.

the only way Punk can be put over now or become credible is if Austin ever comes back and puts him over. Other than that, they buried him just like they do the rest of the roster when the 5 guys they want come back and walk all over people (Rock, Taker, Triple H, Brock, Cena, etc)

No, brock had a limited number of dates that had to be stretched out over a calendar year. That's why you haven't seen him.

(Of course they also made the mistake of having Cena beat him, which just about killed any interest.)

You would need a completely focused/maniacal Punk that is consumed with Taker and the streak over the next couple months. Similar to the Straight Edge Society Punk, just amped up quite a bit. I think it would be terrific, but what they will probably do is have Punk job to Santino in the pre-show.

That's daniel bryan now that he and kane are breaking up. Loses in 3 seconds to a cobra to break sheamus' record.

I'm trying to think about possibilities for the mania card outside of rock-cena and I'm drawing a blank. What faces do they have on the roster right now? Orton? Sort of. Miz? Ugh. Kofi? No main event faces at all.

I know they can't do it for this year's Mania, but I hope to see a build toward a Punk/Bryan feud. Those two would crush it.

I'd love a punk/bryan feud, too, but they'd bury them so far down the card that we'd be lucky if they got 5 minutes in the ring.

I just at some point want Bryan to stop being a comedy character.

Sheamus, Del Rio, and Ryback are all "top" faces.

Ahh, del rio. I forgot about him.

They need to do Sheamus and Barrett.

Ryback needs to disappear from the face of the earth.

Vince is giving Heyman a "performance review" tonight. I can't imagine that leads to anything good.

So we're probably looking at Rock/Cena, HHH/Lesnar and Sheamus/Orton.

Either Jericho/Ryback or Jericho/Ziggler. I'd rather it be Ziggler, because Jericho can stay face after last night, it would be a fantastic match, and he won't get squashed in 5 seconds.

Punk and...Taker still the talk. Not sure how they get to there from last night. The Shield will have to do something tonight (beat down Vince during Heyman's segment?) but I'm not sure how you build a feud with Taker coming off a loss like last night. You'd have to think if Shawn Michaels is involved, it will be in HHH's match, not Taker's, so beating him up wouldn't make sense. They could have feasibly set up the lights going down last night as Taker and not Shield, costing Punk the title, so Punk's out for revenge, but they didn't do that (did they? I couldn't actually see what was happening). Taker ends his streak, so he wants to end Taker's.

I like your thought process on attempting to connect Taker and Punk. I think if that was to happen they would have had to sprinkle in some seeds ahead of time about what would make Taker want to do that. I think Jericho/Ziggler would be awesome.

As for saying Taker is being selfish, I am not the most knowledgeable about backstage stuff, but from everything I have ever heard Taker takes care of the young guys. Hell he barely ever fights for the belt. I don't think its being selfish. Besides, I think most fans, even the older ones, would be upset if Taker lost.

Reaper, we also were wondering last night what is going to happen at the house shows. If they were going to make Punk lose it I wish they had him win and then lose it to the Rock at Chamber. Then you could stick in the wrinkle of Taker and connect Taker and Punk.

It is pretty difficult to build any fear of Taker losing. Killing Punk like this only makes it worse. You already have an obvious finish coming in the main event(Cena/Rock).

You could have Punk beat him, which would establish him in a way that beating Rock at the Rumble wouldn't have. It's "the streak" after all, all the immortal/magical gobbledygook, and a win there would be huge. But as big a Punk fan as I am, if the streak ever ends (and should it at this point?) is he really the right guy for it? He's an established (semi-)main eventer, and he's 35.

And I don't know what putting him in the match just to continue the streak does for him going forward. He's lost the title streak already. Does a mania loss do him any good at all.

Seeing where they go with him tonight is literally the only reason I'm watching. I could not possibly care less about Cena and Rock. I've always been a big Rock fan, but it being Cena again just kills my interest (and yes, I knew it was coming, months ago). I don't need to see back and forth juvenile jokes. The good thing about the Punk/Rock build was that Rock did his schtick, Punk was serious as a heart attack, and he got Rock serious by the end. Cena just can't do that. It's all fart jokes with him.

Yeah, this Rock Cena feud is going to play out as predictable as it did the last time. What will Ryback do for Mania? Something with the Shield?

Jericho, according to Meltzer.

I'm liking the idea of the lights out as a swerve of some kind last night more and more. Have Punk come on tonight and announce The Shield wasn't even in the building and that Vince totally screwed him. Good angry promo.

Not sure how you could tie Undertaker to that, though. He has no reason to attack the Rock that I can think of, so there's some logic holes.

Punk NEEDED to leave last night as the champion and face The Taker at WM and beat him.

yea it was like 20-25 dates and he fulfilled like half of that and now they just signed him to a 2 year deal lol

Wouldn't the most logical and helpful explanation for buyrates and the current product be to say that Cena turned out the lights to punish Rock for beating him last year and move him out of the picture, but that it backfired? This would allow you to set up a triple threat match that involves your main attraction, your best talent and your biggest merch draw and turn Cena heel if that's what you wanted to do.

the triple threat essentially would be whoever is in the elimination chamber match this month for the title. they wont do the same for mania

im assuming this month it will be the Rock beating Punk, Ryback, Cena

According to the observer's afternoon update, Brock and WWE have agreed to (but not yet signed) a 2-year deal, so expect tonight to setup the HHH-Brock rematch. Maybe Brock taking out Vince during the Heyman performance review.

And the plan is a CM Punk/Rock rematch at EC, not a chamber match for the title.

Regarding the Shield, it actually was them doing the run in last night, although they can always play it as being someone else.

They were apparently hidden under the ring.

Jericho is back through mania, and it's something they've been working on for a while, not a last-minute thing. Still looking like Jericho/Ryback.

I'd be really surprised if they ever turn Cena.

I think the thing that angers me the most is that you had the chance to go in new directions for WM and set up some awesome matches/storylines that could be very intriguing yet instead we get the same cookie cutter bullshit over and over again...the company just has no balls at all anymore...

That and the fact that NO MATTER WHAT they insist on continually shoving John Cena down people's throats even though he gets bigger heat than a lot of their heels and is shit on virtually everywhere...its ridiculous...

BTW the scenario I had for the Rumble leading into WM was...

Ziggler cashes in on Del Rio lasts night and wins the WHC...cuts the promo about unifying the title...and yadda yadda yadda, the Rumble plays out the same with Cena winning...

Brock costs The Rock the title against Punk and Punk retains...

On RAW...

Cena teases cashing in on Punk at WM but settles on Ziggler as that feud is already built up...

Rock gives one of his coked up promos and goes on a rampage demanding Brock, bam another feud and WM set up...

Punk comes out and cuts a promo about how he has nothing left to prove, he's beaten Cena, The Rock, blah blah blah and the lights go out....gong....Taker comes out and points at the WM sign as Punk shits himself or something like that.

Boom three main events set up for WM with the most intriguing one being streak vs. streak which with the right build up could've been epic IMO...

At Wrestlemania...

Cena takes the WHC off Ziggler...Rock gets his revenge...now for Punk/Taker...I would do...

Make it no DQ before Mania...tease UT about ready to pin Punk after hitting him with the Tombstone...lights go out...come back up with The Shield attacking Taker. Cena hits the ring to a big pop looking to make the save, and then have him FU (yeah I still call it that) Taker and give Punk the win, thus turning heel and helping end The Streak.

I think this way it would give Punk a big rub for ending the streak and give Cena's heel turn HUGE momentum based on how it was done and what it lead to...it'd be similar to Hogan.

Next night on RAW, have it revealed that Cena was running The Shield the entire time and that's why they "protected" Punk and Cena was Heyman's ace in the hole to ensure Punk's title reign continued. Convoluted and far fetched I know but they could make it work.

Punk and Cena now form the new "two man power trip" similar to HHH and Austin and they have both titles so basically them and The Shield run roughshot on the entire roster for the rest of the summer. This gives the Ortons, Sheamus', HHH's, etc. occupied...hell this would even give a reason to turn Brock face and have him chase one or both. They'd be like the new nWo or something like that...it'd give us something fresh and unpredictable for once.

Hell have them basically rule the company until next year's Mania and then do Cena/Punk vs. Rock/Brock or Rock/Austin or you know something like that.

I would've much preferred something like that...

They weren't ever going to go in a new direction because the reality is that, as much as we dudes talking about it on the 'net might think it's boring, it's probably going to be the biggest mania of all time, both gate and ppv. They went with what they saw as the money matches, and they're probably right. Unfortunately. Because joe sixpack sees wrestling the same way that vince does. And in vince's world daniel bryan is a short, small, goat-faced midget and not the legit best worker in the world, and he sees cm punk as a scrawny geek who doesn't deserve to be in the ring with physical specimen like rock and cena. It's sad, but we're the fans of the underdogs, and 99% of everyone else loves what happened last night.

I think it's stupid too cena is annoying who really wants to see cena and rock 2. But I didnt want punk to turn either I thought he was awesome as a face against mgmt much like Austin use to be.

Punk as a heel or face is the man, just wish they wouldnt make him such a coward in the heel role.

letting him win clean occasionally would be nice. But that's an overall problem in WWE. Heels never win clean. Hell, basically nobody aside from Cena ever wins clean with any regularity.

Oooh, angry punk. Good start.

Haven't been on here for awhile, and I can't really add much that hasn't already been said... But why in the hell do they have to make this so difficult to build up new guys?

I was watching The Rock's documentary from last year & he said the same thing Austin said, the same thing Punk has said & the same thing that HHH has said. Give a guy a mic, let him be himself, turn up the volume and give him a chance. Odds are, he'll make it work if it's going to work. Don't understand why they can't do this with some of the younger talent on the roster and instead keep going back to the old guys for ratings at Mania, only to see the ratings drop after the fact.

I know he's been the Champ for 400whatever days, but I still feel like Punk isn't a legit main eventer in Vince's eyes. Wouldn't shock me to see him back to the upper-midcard & jobbing at Mania to someone who doesn't need the win (Taker, I guess). I think that's what depressed me most after last night.

If we have to use the old guys/part timers for Mania, here's what I'd go with:

Punk v. Brock
Cena v. Taker
Rock v. Ziggler

All 3 matches we haven't seen, all 3 main event caliber & there's something to gain for everybody IMO. But I guess WWE true fan would rather see rematches galore.

Was tempted to finally make the trip to Mania this year, seeing as how I love visiting NY & it's on my friend's birthday. Told him I'd make it up to him in a year where the card doesn't suck. FU, Vince/Cena/whoever likes this trash.


...It's times like this I'm mad that Punk cut that promo a year & a half ago. Had he not done that & just left, I could have stopped watching wrestling, at least for awhile. Magnificent bastard.

Cena's on quite the shitty promo streak.

The Shield is terrible for the WWE. Zero working ability.

Love what they're doing with the Shield. Having them lay out Cena, Sheamus and Ryback all three is great. I thought for sure this was going to be the start of their eventual burial.

This is like getting a do-over on The Nexus, but doing it right this time.

Reigns is the only green one. Ambrose and Rollins can both work their asses off if they're given the opportunity.

This isn't like a trio of Rybacks or something.

Ehhh.. not to me. Split them up and let them work, if they can actually work. If not they will fade off into oblivion.

Look up some old indy video from when they were Tyler Black and Jon Moxley.

Go to youtube, now. Search "Tyler Black"

I didn't realize that guy was Tyler Black. I remember some videos from about 3 years ago.. you never really get to see his face in some of those. Uhhmm yeah he should be wrestling by himself.

Rock and Punk have such a great dynamic. Especially when they get serious. Makes me sad that people want to hear Cena poop jokes instead of solid mic work like that.

Big fan of Punk's line about where he's going to be Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Subtle.

"I'm gonna' stand up on stage like a punk ass bitch, because its cool to swear, ladies and gentlemen!"

Punk is so good.

CM Punk is the best in the business.

Surprised to see Sandow get so much offense on Sheamus. Expected a straight squash like with Cody Rhodes earlier.

lol

As a team they are not good. Individually they could be very good.

That end was pretty much perfect. I'm not sure at the dynamic they're trying to play between Lesnar and Heyman, but it was interesting. Easy set up for HHH.

Take away the diva match and the khali/3mb singing segment and that was actually a good ep.

The setup makes Brock look real dangerous. He's completely loyal to Heyman but Heyman can't control him. That's danger.

The curious dynamic will be how Punk fits in with all of this.

Quite the stable, Lesnar, Punk and the Shield. Masterminded by Heyman. They haven't done anything like that in a while.

NOW that would be great... Punk would make that.

That would be awesome. I'm skeptical that they'll let me down, but what else is new?

Could also turn into an epic Punk v. Brock match down the line. Which I need to see.

It would never happen in a billion years, but I'm imagining sometime around summerslam, the shield are your tag team champions, punk is your wwe champion (getting it back from cena), lesnar is your heavyweight champion (like he'd be on smackdown, but this is fantasy booking damnit). They just destroy everyone. I can imagine the heat they'd build.

But no. We get John Cena winning the "impossible" match against the Rock. Another tag team like Hell No (not that I don't like them...) that probably hates each other and serves as comic relief, and...whoever's champ on smackdown.

I heard something earlier about there being several brock matches for later in the year being looked at. The one I remember was Orton (god, brock might break him, as gimpy as his shoulder is).

Punk and Brock would be entertaining, if just to see how Punk would work to make himself look competitive in that situation.

I'm surprised he left it at that.

I was disappointed they didn't let Cody do anything. I really liked his reaction to drawing Cena. I like both him and Sandow. Sandow just needs to get a little more witty.

I think I'm seeing Punk on Saturday at the house show in Montgomery, AL. I'll let you guys know if Dwayne shows up.

Cena has to be on something. He looked freaking juiced to the gills tonight, veins-a-popping.

I fell asleep so I missed the end of the KU game and Raw.

I missed the video of Heyman's Personal Performance Review. So I take it the video showed Lesnar/Heyman/The Shield was behind The Rock getting knocked out during the RR Title match?

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0eTHJijJb6c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

THIS guy takes fake wrestling far too seriously..

Okay, so I'm just sitting down to watch Raw on Hulu this morning and I was entertained by the Orton match in the beginning. I'm just finishing up watching Cena completely destroy Cody Rhodes. Cody looks all scared in the back after drawing him, tries to walk away after getting his ass kicked, then gets dusted after Cena goes out to get him in about 30 seconds.

I think I understand what you guys have been saying about SuperCena. So, does Rhodes just blow? He's got a good pedigree. And is Cena a face? Because he gets booed like a mother****er. They can't even hide it.

Rhodes could be good.

He looked normal to me. What is your opinion on Daniel Bryan it seems to me he has gotten alot bigger since he came to the WWE. I am pretty sure he is using something.

Liked the Big Show/Del Rio spot. That's a good build on a fued that's either been going, or getting started, I don't know. But it was compelling stuff.

And here comes the guy that's got me back to watching. I figure with the belt, he's got to be around more, which is why I'm going to try and get caught up and watch at least until Wrestlemania. The fact it's on Hulu the next day makes it easier for me.

Punk is genuinely one of the best heels I have EVER seen.